Crossbow and broadhead sales ban and crossbow licensing one step closer.

[Wildgoose]

I guess my thoughts are that murder is already against the law, no matter what 'implements' are used - more and more legislation won't make it more illegal will it?

No. Murder is the end action, so if someone has the intent they can still strangle someone.
But that’s actually quite hard, takes a lot to do, the perpetrator might lose.

Preventing the end action is very hard, but there is a lot of things in place to reduce the risks.

This restriction is reducing the means someone has to complete that action.
Murder isn’t generally the first crime committed by someone.

Currently, if police attend an address to arrest someone for a lesser offence and search they have no power to remove crossbows that aren’t linked to that offence.

 

[Wildgoose]

So you can't forbid cars, they are available for mayhem all the time. Now how does that make them less dangerous. A perfect weapon, gov can't restrict them!

Besides the logic of forbidding something to make it less available is more than slightly wrong, it is less available to people who would not misuse it anyway and does in many cases not restrict availability to people who could care less about laws and are using them as always. Something like knives?

Cars are restricted and registered. If you have one “off ticket” and unregistered there are powers in place to deal with that.

 

[Woody girl]

So, I've just learned that someone drove a van into a crowd of people in Derby yesterday, injuring 20 people.
I'll bet that van had all the paperwork in order. But whether it had or not, it didn't stop someone attempting to injure and kill innocent others out minding their own business.
The report says the person has been arrested, and is a 30 Yr old of "another" ethnicity other than English , not that I'm casting any aspertions, I don't know the ethnic make up of the area, so the odds of it being any particular person are totaly irrelevant for me.
But, this illustrates perfectly the point that sadly,
Paper work, and registration etc of anything that could harm others in any way, do not stop those who have a certain mindset .
And yes, details are sketchy of course, and it could have been that the brakes failed.. but I doubt it.
My point being that jumping on crossbows, in the big scheme of things is realy quite a pointless exercise, when a van car or lorry can do far more damage in the wrong hands than a bow. Registered or not.

 

[Chris]

Just to be clear, are people genuinely holding the position that a car which is designed for transporting things and which has an overall huge net benefit to people across the country, is the same as a crossbow which was originally designed with the sole purpose of shooting a sharp projectile into people and now only has legal usage by a very, very small number of hobbyists? You don't see how there's a difference in the benefit to humanity vs risk to humanity tradeoff?

I'm actually against government just banning things, and would oppose an outright ban on crossbows. But if we aren't willing to understand the reasons they are seeking to ban them and we make emotional arguments which are not logically sound such as 'what about cars??' and other whataboutery, people will not listen to our arguments.

 

[Chris]

But whether it had or not, it didn't stop someone attempting to injure and kill innocent others out minding their own business.

Do you think the number of deaths and injuries involving cars would increase or decrease if we dropped the requirement to have a driving license, insurance, MOT and other strict laws around vehicle usage, and anyone could just buy a car and drive it around as they pleased?

 

[Toddy]

BBC reports

What we know so far published at 10:00​

"Here's a recap of what we know so far about the incident in Derby last night.

Derbyshire Police said seven people were injured when a black Suzuki Swift car was driven into pedestrians in Friar Gate at about 21:30 GMT.

Seven people suffered non life-threatening injuries and officers confirmed no-one died in the incident.

The seven injured were treated at the scene by ambulance crews and taken to the Royal Derby Hospital and Nottingham's Queen’s Medical Centre."

Man Arrested on Suspicion of Attempted Murder in Derby

A man has been arrested following the incident in Derby which left seven people injured

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Woody girl]

7 or 70, injured, a susuki swift or a pantecnican.
The point being, it was used to hurt people. Designed for it or not, a vehicle does far more damage each year to human life and health than a crossbow.
And blow me down, you have to pass a test, get insured, have an mot etc. Far more convoluted, and anybody can do it...no vetting.
We are all hopefully normal people who wouldn't even dream in a moment of madness using a car as a weapon, or their woodcarving axe to do damage.
What about throwing knives? A harmless target sport but in the wrong hands......, they were origionaly a weapon and I know for a fact that some of us have that hobby.
Perhaps slingshots should also be registered , after all, how many tin cans rats and squirrels have those killed?
Perfectly capable of imflicting serious damage or death on a human too. Designed to kill.
just ask golieth!
I'm still waiting to hear how many stabbings banning fixed blade knives over a certain length has stopped.....anyone got any statistics on that?
I guess I'm just a bit tired of being told civil liberties that have been no problem for hundreds of years, are now a problem.
We are told that all these new restrictions from those over 65 having driving restrictions foisted on them, to this subject are for our own good and safety.
Heck! My forebears managed quite well thank you without all these new rules.
I don't have any intention of going out armed with a crossbow, but it riles me that it seems I can't be trusted without legislation to behave like a normal person.
Let them nibble away at our freedom to live a life of personal responsibility. It will be much easier when we don't have to think or have a moral compass as it's all been decided for us. Bliss!

 

[TLM]

Just to be clear, are people genuinely holding the position that a car which is designed for transporting things and which has an overall huge net benefit to people across the country, is the same as a crossbow which was originally designed with the sole purpose of shooting a sharp projectile into people and now only has legal usage by a very, very small number of hobbyists? You don't see how there's a difference in the benefit to humanity vs risk to humanity tradeoff?

In most circumstances a car is much more lethal than a crossbow and in many cases to a lot more people at the same time. "But what about all the good it can do?" That comparison is extremely irrelevant if one looks at the potential lethality. Besides I think that if we take the total kill count of crossbows vs. cars the latter win by some margin.

 

[Herman30]

The report says the person has been arrested, and is a 30 Yr old of "another" ethnicity other than English , not that I'm casting any aspertions, I don't know the ethnic make up of the area, so the odds of it being any particular person are totaly irrelevant for me.

I am 99,9% sure than I can name the religion the perp belongs to.

 

[Woody girl]

I know of 3 people injured by cars in the last year. One can now barely walk and needs a motability wagon.
I've lost friends to vehicle accidents over the years.
I don't know of anyone hurt, or who's had life changing injuries from a crossbow.
Out of interest, can anyone be bothered to find out the statistics of crossbow deaths from say the last ten years? Then let's compare it with knife deaths or car deaths...( cars obviously not designed as a lethal object, but which seem to instigate more death and mayhem than anything else.)
Then we might have an argument if crossbow injuries and deaths outweigh car fatalities.

 

[Toddy]

We have issues with crossbows. Remember my Numpty Factor ? well numpty with crossbow thought it fun to shoot at the deer in the necropolis in Glasgow....and hadn't a clue what to do but run away when he ? she? managed to hit the deer.... not much the police can do, because the crossbow was legal.....like the airgun that another numpty used 'aiming for the fire engine' but hit a wee two year old in the head instead. Andrew Morton pretty much died in his big brother's arms

BBC NEWS | Scotland | Man convicted of toddler's murder

Society is complex. Individual freedom is a responsibility, not a right.

 

[Toddy]

I am 99,9% sure than I can name the religion the perp belongs to.

I suspect you may be mistaken. We are told he is Indian.....and India has a plethora of religions.

 

[Chris]

Some undertones of racism cropping up on the forum lately. How disappointing.

 

[Woody girl]

Some undertones of racism cropping up on the forum lately. How disappointing.

Its a reported fact the man in the susuki in derby is Indian and has been charged with attempted murder with a vehicle..
Fact, not racism.
Having a guess at someone's religion isn't racist either. One could easily guess what religion I might belong to based on where I come from and where I lived most of my life.
They could be right or wrong. Doesn't make it racist.
Religion isn't a race. Its a belief. Lots of people make that mistake.

 

[Pattree]

I tapped out of this discussion a bit back because it it has become a rehearsal of stances (for and against) that we’ve seen so often here, that there wasn’t any discussion.

In my opinion this thread, while originally informative, has descended into an subjective mess.

So:
Simple question:
Why shouldn’t a crossbow be regulated to the same extent as a gun?

 

[Toddy]

I think Pattree has the right of it.

Shall we reframe the thread ?

Why shouldn’t a crossbow be regulated to the same extent as a gun?

 

[Toddy]

Honestly ? I can't see why it shouldn't.

If you have a right to own it, you have a responsibility to only use it safely......and be insured, etc., too.
After all, drivers are insured for third party at a minimum.

 

[Herman30]

It should NOT be regulated because it is not such a dangerous thing.

 

[Toddy]

I have a scar under my breast. My wee brother shot me with an arrow when we were children. I ran down the park to home with that thing bobbing in front of me, and I could hear my brother whining behind me saying, "She's going to tell ", and too right I did.
Mum looked at me, looked at the arrow, figured out that it wasn't in very far (wee brother had hammered a bit of copper pipe onto the end of a stick and cut it into a point with tinsnips) and pulled it out. Mum said, "Robert! you're a pill !", I got an elastoplast and a hug, and his bow was broken and ended up on the back of the fire. Dad came home and saw it burning, he'd made the bow for my bother, and wisely kept his mouth shut.
He made Robert a crossbow instead, that was supposed to only fire clothes pegs .....Mum burnt that one too.

Look, pretty much anything used with intent can be a weapon, but somethings are really nothing but weapons.
If licencing them makes folks think about responsibility then it's no bad thing.
It also means that if some (aforementioned Numpty) does something criminal with it, or is suspected thereof, then the Police, Procurator Fiscal and Sheriff can deal with the matter accordingly.

 

[Woody girl]

When they come for your target bow next, as that could hurt someone too?
Honestly, do you all want to be cutting your nice lab grown steak ( has to be lab grown cos cows fart and are dangerous to the atmosphere,) with a plastic knife...oh wait, it will come pre cut.
Yes I'm being overly cynical, but , it always starts somewhere and slowly slowly catchee monkey.
I can't put what I want to here as I'd be thrown off the forum!
But as an older person who has had a free childhood playing with catapults ,home made bows and arrows, having fun and no thought of violence, and never harming anything as we had been warned about accidents and took care not to be idiots. Though accidents will always happen. You cannot legitimate them out of being, and now seeing kids with little more than a phone in their hands, who, to feel safe, carry a knife to defend themselves.

I'm still wondering how many crossbow incidents have happened to make this a nessasary law. So far, nobody has come up with the relevant statistics.
I'm just tired of being told what I can and cannot do.
I honestly had more trust and freedom as an imatute 10 Yr old than I do now as a much wiser pensioner.