Licensing for Knife Sellers or Importers

[chimpy leon]

I'm sure what CL wants to imply is there is a large difference between ethnic groups and knife crime. Actually, when you look deeply, normalise the data, remove bias, prejudice and uncertainty, take into account geographical dispersal etc. the figures are not significantly different. On top of that, there are other violent crimes that swing the opposite way.

We should remove all prejudice and bias and simply study the facts, figures and review every piece of gathered information that is available to us, whether it be government reports or per capita disclosures et. Then take the necessary action.
I cannot think of a better way to combat this kind of violence in order to make a society that is safer for everyone regardless of who they are.

Why do some people get so upset when facts and figures are mentioned?

…I guess that’s the thing with data - by its very nature it is harsh and indiscriminate. Unfortunately for the easily upset, the data doesn’t care about feelings.

I don’t know about anyone else but I’d rather take a safer society and a few outraged people over someone innocent being stabbed to death.

 

[Broch]

My point is CL, is that when you look at all the published data, it does not point to a clear solution other than we need to create a society where everyone has opportunity. I don't have any idea how one does that.

 

[C_Claycomb]

This appears to be a good point to say this.

Going to great lengths to obscure meaning in posts, trying to say without saying, invariably just winds up with ambiguous posts that can be read as supporting either side of an argument. When asked for clarification, evading and using antagonistic ambiguity to put the onus on everyone else to figure out what is meant is very irritating. Such a reply might be aimed at a single person, but it hits everyone.

Calling for people to look at data and apply logic or critical thinking does not clarify a position or meaning because both sides of arguments make such calls all the time.

 

[HorseGuy]

https://theworlddata.com/crime-statistics-uk-by-race/

 

[Chris]

https://theworlddata.com/crime-statistics-uk-by-race/

Could you give an explanation of what message it is you're wanting to get across by posting this? As Chris C said above, it's easy to just say 'look at the statistics' without saying what you're trying to say, but it's not really helpful for discourse.

 

[HorseGuy]

Could you give an explanation of what message it is you're wanting to get across by posting this? As Chris C said above, it's easy to just say 'look at the statistics' without saying what you're trying to say, but it's not really helpful for discourse.

I was not trying to say or imply anything. But as the subject of crime statistics and race/ethnicity were being discussed it might be useful for people to actually see what the raw data says.

 

[Chris]

Problem is when you post the data based on race, is that it inherently implies that it's entirely a race issue.

Young black men in deprived areas commit a disproportionate amount of knife crime in London. But people tend to focus on the 'black' aspect, but not the 'young men from deprived areas' aspect, which can lead to pretty unfair mischaracterisations of people based on the colour of their skin.

As Broch said, if you look into the data and studies done, it's far more an issue of poverty and opportunity (or lack thereof) which correlates with where certain communities have settled and grown, rather than necessarily implying a causation. Deprived areas which lack opportunity but are full of white people also experience stabbings and violent crimes, but London being such a high population skews national statistics.

It's hard not to assume when people try to say things without saying them, that their view is that race is the cause of the problem rather than it being a much more complex issues.

If you think the race disparity is bad, you should look at the gender disparity. I'm not one for blaming men for the world's ills, but it's undeniable that the vast, vast majority of violent knife crime is committed by men. I assume that people aren't suggesting that the police crack down on men in general, though?

 

[chimpy leon]

My point is if you look at ALL the relevant data, including the disclosed per capita data and not just the fluff the mainstream media wants you to know, then the police can ascertain who is more likely to commit a violent crime in a given area.

I know it’s a bitter pill for some to swallow, but certain demographics do lean more towards violence where their numbers are higher - cities for example. Could it be gang related maybe? - data will guide you. Other demographics higher in rural areas and sub urban areas - data will guide you. One size doesn’t fit all.

Again, look at the facts and figures and act accordingly. Safer community for everybody as a result. Problem not solved but dramatically reduced. It’s not impossible to have a safer society if you apply logic and common sense and are willing to risk hurting feelings of the wilfully offended.

I cannot throw my hat into the ring any more than that.

 

[HorseGuy]

Problem is when you post the data based on race, is that it inherently implies that it's entirely a race issue.

I think it's rather more complex than that. I suspect that any statistical correlation between crime and ethnicity is likely influenced more by things like individual peoples upbringing and other previous life experiences rather than simply being caused by whether they were born black, white, asian or whatever.

I'm also not sure exactly what chimpy leon might have been implying with his comments. Maybe he was implying that there could be a correlation between religion and crime or maybe immigration status and crime? I don't know. We can only guess as he hasn't specifically said. I would be curious to see statistics for these though if there are any available (I couldn't find any when I looked just now).

If you think the race disparity is bad, you should look at the gender disparity. I'm not one for blaming men for the world's ills, but it's undeniable that the vast, vast majority of violent knife crime is committed by men. I assume that people aren't suggesting that the police crack down on men in general, though?

Men are generally much more aggressive (and stupid?) than women are. Sometimes I wonder what the world would be like if it was run be women rather than predominantly by men? There would probably be a lot fewer wars.

 

[HorseGuy]

Again, look at the facts and figures and act accordingly.

Apologies. We had crossed posts. I was still typing my reply before I saw yours.

Do you have a link to the facts and figures you're referring to so that we can see them?

 

[slaine_23]

Sometimes I wonder what the world would be like if it was run be women rather than predominantly by men? There would probably be a lot fewer wars

Ghost of Maggie Thatcher enters chat.

 

[HorseGuy]

Ghost of Maggie Thatcher enters chat.

I feel the effects of Godwin's law is fast approaching.

 

[chimpy leon]

Problem is when you post the data based on race, is that it inherently implies that it's entirely a race issue.

Young black men in deprived areas commit a disproportionate amount of knife crime in London. But people tend to focus on the 'black' aspect, but not the 'young men from deprived areas' aspect, which can lead to pretty unfair mischaracterisations of people based on the colour of their skin.

As Broch said, if you look into the data and studies done, it's far more an issue of poverty and opportunity (or lack thereof) which correlates with where certain communities have settled and grown, rather than necessarily implying a causation. Deprived areas which lack opportunity but are full of white people also experience stabbings and violent crimes, but London being such a high population skews national statistics.

It's hard not to assume when people try to say things without saying them, that their view is that race is the cause of the problem rather than it being a much more complex issues.

If you think the race disparity is bad, you should look at the gender disparity. I'm not one for blaming men for the world's ills, but it's undeniable that the vast, vast majority of violent knife crime is committed by men. I assume that people aren't suggesting that the police crack down on men in general, though?

It is Painfully obvious men are committing most of the violence! I was assuming this was an adult conversation.

I’ll try to put in a safe and insular way for you:

If the TV remote is chewed and it’s lying in a dog’s bed when I find it - do I blame the cat or the dog?

If the curtains are frayed at the top from claw marks - do I blame the cat or the dog?

It maybe hard to come to terms with but you are blaming the cat for the curtains and the dog for the remote. Logic and common sense will prevail. This allows you to react accordingly to prevent it from happening again.

To look at violent crimes purely from a logical standpoint can be advantageous, even if every fibre of your being is screaming at you “that’s racist!”, it doesn’t necessarily make the facts and figures wrong.

 

[Chris]

It is Painfully obvious men are committing most of the violence! I was assuming this was an adult conversation.

I’ll try to put in a safe and insular way for you:

If the TV remote is chewed and it’s lying in a dog’s bed when I find it - do I blame the cat or the dog?

If the curtains are frayed at the top from claw marks - do I blame the cat or the dog?

It maybe hard to come to terms with but you are blaming the cat for the curtains and the dog for the remote. Logic and common sense will prevail. This allows you to react accordingly to prevent it from happening again.

To look at violent crimes purely from logical point standpoint can be advantageous, even if every fibre of your being is screaming at you “that’s racist!”, it doesn’t necessarily make the facts and figures wrong.

You're being awfully aggressive in your response to me for someone who has still not actually said plainly what they mean. It's quite hard to discuss things if you're unwilling to do the most basic thing required.

Just as a reminder, this is what you said which I asked you to clarify what you mean:

What we need is More coppers on the beat, more random stop and searches and forgo political correctness; Look at the statistics - search according to who is doing what.

 

[Buckshot]

This seems to me to be...

 

[HorseGuy]

You're being awfully aggressive in your response to me for someone who has still not actually said plainly what they mean. It's quite hard to discuss things if you're unwilling to do the most basic thing required.

I suspect that we all have an idea what chimpy leon might be implying. However as we no longer have freedom of speech here in the UK the specific words cannot be typed on a public forum for fear of a visit from plod for a NCHI.

 

[chimpy leon]

You're being awfully aggressive in your response to me for someone who has still not actually said plainly what they mean. It's quite hard to discuss things if you're unwilling to do the most basic thing required.

Just as a reminder, this is what you said which I asked you to clarify what you mean:

No aggression intended.
Ive said exactly what I set out to say on this matter across several posts.
If you have a difference of opinion to me then that’s absolutely fine.

 

[Herman30]

Ive said exactly what I set out to say on this matter across several posts.
If you have a difference of opinion to me then that’s absolutely fine.

Problem is, you have not expressed any opinion (at least not one that I can understand) so one can not agree or disagree with you.

 

[chimpy leon]

Problem is, you have not expressed any opinion (at least not one that I can understand) so one can not agree or disagree with you.

I cannot help you there. Sorry.

 

[slowworm]

Problem is, you have not expressed any opinion (at least not one that I can understand) so one can not agree or disagree with you.

I think he has, well I could understand from his first post. I would say the forums not politics rule would also stop further explanation.

I can either agree or disagree, or more likely agree with some of what's said.

I think more police who are actually on the streets would help, the powers that be need to back them up and I would say some thought should be used with regard to motive so a naive bushcrafter is not treated like a streetwise drug dealer. (On that note I also think something need to be done about the vast number of people in the UK fuelling crime by buying illegal drugs).