What did the Pandemic do for you ?

[HorseGuy]

The pandemic had little effect on me either physically or mentally. In fact for the most part I thoroughly enjoyed having a long holiday off work paid for by the QE currency printer. There were two significant negative things which happened to me though.

1, What little trust I used to have for government and other institutions has now totally gone.

2, My dad died from a thrombosis after taking the vaccine.

 

[Pattree]

I’m so very sorry for your loss,

but

correlation is not of itself causation.

I lost a friend to a thrombosis in his leg very recently. He had just changed his anticoagulation treatment. That wasn’t the cause of his thrombosis.



If anyone came out of Covid sceptical about treatment or authority then I respect their view and it’s good to see the discussion here.

But
Please don’t evangelise when we meet. I’ve simply made other decisions.

.

 

[HorseGuy]

I’m so very sorry for your loss,

but

correlation is not of itself causation.

I lost a friend to a thrombosis in his leg very recently. He had just changed his anticoagulation treatment. That wasn’t the cause of his thrombosis.



If anyone came out of Covid sceptical about treatment or authority then I respect their view and it’s good to see the discussion here.

But
Please don’t evangelise when we meet. I’ve simply made other decisions.

.

Thanks and no need to worry about me soapboxing.

There has already been far too much of that from all sides over the past five years and everyone is already so stuck in whatever their own belief systems are that neither side is likely to ever budge or even listen other views at this stage. All it does is divide good people who would otherwise likely have much in common and would get along fine.

 

[Toddy]

Maybe (some) people "broke the rules" because they made a reasoned and balanced decision that "the rules" were nonsensical?

Masks is a good example. I have spent a number of years in a technical environment where I must advise on mask use. The surgical face coverings in use for COVID are not allowed for protection from silica dust or asbestos because they would have been ineffective.... both of which are larger in size than a virus, and of course they leak around the edges not being face-fitted. Anyone who had any proper understanding of respiratory protective equipment knew that the loose "masks" recommended were basically pointless. Even where masks or a suitable type specified, such masks must be donned and worn correctly (including being clean shaven) and replaced regularly to actually deliver the theoretical level of protection.

No, requiring masks was a fear tactic- as the minutes of the government unit tasked with "nudging" the population into taking the siutation seriously enough showed. People were not scared enough, so they brought in a visibile symbolic reminder then scared people into (a) using it and (b) ostracising those who didn't. They were very effective ifrom the progaganda point of view- and the fear still remains.

And this is why trust was eroded.



Hmmm, that's a great theoretical position, but it assumes that the mandated treatment is effective. Which was at best debateable in thie case, and the control measures for dissenters were overly draconian in some jurisdictions. The tyranny of majority (mob?) opinion always needs to be guarded against, especially where emotions run high.



The problem with this argument in the COVID scenario is that it falls down when you look at the risk profiles of COVID and efficacy of the vaccine. It was a disease which caused very little harm to children, and indeed the risks of the vaccine were probably higher than that of the disease unless you were elderly and/or had some specific medical conditions. So doubtful that universal (vs targetted) vaccination was appropriate.

The other issue is that unlike the vaccines for the diseases you cite, the COVID "vaccine" was not a proper sterilising vaccine in that vaccinated people could still catch the condition and pass it on. The same is not the case with something like measles vaccine which stops the transmission by vaccinated people, and so achieves herd immunity, and it's that herd immunity which protects those who cannot safely have the vaccine, e.g. smallpox is contraindicted in persons with immune-related skin conditions like eczema. There's also the issue of "original antigenic sin" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_antigenic_sin) which is cited as being relevant to COVID.

I had the initial Astra-zenica vaccine, but I had odd side efffects after the first jab- I am menopausal, but it caused a period. Although the govt at the time denied that was a side effect, the (female) nurse who gave me the second jab in the course admitted that in her experience it was a common side effect in women. Eventually it was admitted to be a side-effect, but they said "rare" and don't know why..... so, a vaccine that does not prevent spread, for a condition which is not particularly problematic for most of the populaiton, causes a very noticable side-effect that they cannot explain and initially denied.

I didn't have any more jabs. (I'd had COVID anyway in the first wave before it was recognised). Trust gone.

COVID was a complex situation which wasn't handled well- and indeed wasn't handled in line with the established UK govt emergency procedures for a pandemic. We got poor/flawed modelling and an increasing level of control which was at best questionable. We went vaccine and PPE mad- some people and companies made a LOT of money out of it. We created divides in society, ran up a huge debt and left a legacy of distrust and disadvantaged children. Trust in "the experts" and institutions was squandered and lost.

There were some positives- routine use of Teams for example- but the the legacy overall I believe was harmful.

GC

I disagree on the vaccinations agin covid....and my response was not actually just aimed at the covid ones.

My younger son had had cancer, and his very compromised immune system meant we were locked down hard, and our family were all vaccinated as part of the group considered extremely vulnerable ahead of the major population programmes.

Later when he went back to work, and he did catch covid, I was worried sick, yet he sailed through it.....presumably because his immune system had had a real heads up beforehand.

Despite living in the same household, my husband I were careful, not paranoid, not ridiculous about things, but even though we tended him through his Covid infection (and checked with the wee stick things to see when he was clear) we never have had covid ourselves. We have had the vaccinations though.

I have a tiny wee sixpence sized white scar on my shoulder, virtually everyone of my generation has a similar scar.....our children don't have that. They don't need it. We killed smallpox here, and mostly elsewhere.
Vaccines work, they're not perfect, they're not suitable for everyone, but they are for the majority, and the growing selfish voices claiming they're all right, aren't really helping beat back the diseases that decimated human populations for millenia.

 

[Herman30]

....tiny wee sixpence sized white scar on my shoulder...

Yep, mine is still visible.

 

[Silverclaws2]

Maybe (some) people "broke the rules" because they made a reasoned and balanced decision that "the rules" were nonsensical?

Masks is a good example. I have spent a number of years in a technical environment where I must advise on mask use. The surgical face coverings in use for COVID are not allowed for protection from silica dust or asbestos because they would have been ineffective.... both of which are larger in size than a virus, and of course they leak around the edges not being face-fitted. Anyone who had any proper understanding of respiratory protective equipment knew that the loose "masks" recommended were basically pointless. Even where masks or a suitable type specified, such masks must be donned and worn correctly (including being clean shaven) and replaced regularly to actually deliver the theoretical level of protection.

No, requiring masks was a fear tactic- as the minutes of the government unit tasked with "nudging" the population into taking the siutation seriously enough showed. People were not scared enough, so they brought in a visibile symbolic reminder then scared people into (a) using it and (b) ostracising those who didn't. They were very effective ifrom the progaganda point of view- and the fear still remains.

And this is why trust was eroded.



Hmmm, that's a great theoretical position, but it assumes that the mandated treatment is effective. Which was at best debateable in thie case, and the control measures for dissenters were overly draconian in some jurisdictions. The tyranny of majority (mob?) opinion always needs to be guarded against, especially where emotions run high.



The problem with this argument in the COVID scenario is that it falls down when you look at the risk profiles of COVID and efficacy of the vaccine. It was a disease which caused very little harm to children, and indeed the risks of the vaccine were probably higher than that of the disease unless you were elderly and/or had some specific medical conditions. So doubtful that universal (vs targetted) vaccination was appropriate.

The other issue is that unlike the vaccines for the diseases you cite, the COVID "vaccine" was not a proper sterilising vaccine in that vaccinated people could still catch the condition and pass it on. The same is not the case with something like measles vaccine which stops the transmission by vaccinated people, and so achieves herd immunity, and it's that herd immunity which protects those who cannot safely have the vaccine, e.g. smallpox is contraindicted in persons with immune-related skin conditions like eczema. There's also the issue of "original antigenic sin" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_antigenic_sin) which is cited as being relevant to COVID.

I had the initial Astra-zenica vaccine, but I had odd side efffects after the first jab- I am menopausal, but it caused a period. Although the govt at the time denied that was a side effect, the (female) nurse who gave me the second jab in the course admitted that in her experience it was a common side effect in women. Eventually it was admitted to be a side-effect, but they said "rare" and don't know why..... so, a vaccine that does not prevent spread, for a condition which is not particularly problematic for most of the populaiton, causes a very noticable side-effect that they cannot explain and initially denied.

I didn't have any more jabs. (I'd had COVID anyway in the first wave before it was recognised). Trust gone.

COVID was a complex situation which wasn't handled well- and indeed wasn't handled in line with the established UK govt emergency procedures for a pandemic. We got poor/flawed modelling and an increasing level of control which was at best questionable. We went vaccine and PPE mad- some people and companies made a LOT of money out of it. We created divides in society, ran up a huge debt and left a legacy of distrust and disadvantaged children. Trust in "the experts" and institutions was squandered and lost.

There were some positives- routine use of Teams for example- but the the legacy overall I believe was harmful.

GC

The point of the masks we were told to wear and particularly the low protection medical examination grade masks most took to wearing was for the purpose of ideally arresting projected infection from exhalation and forced exhalation from such as coughing. The idea being protection from infection can only be expected if everyone complies with the mask wearing and advised distancing obligations, that is we were asked to rely on each other for our individual safety !!!

 

[Pattree]

……….. and many of us happily complied. There was absolutely no harm from wearing them and they could well help others.

 

[Toddy]

I sew, the masks were sort of fun to work out, devise and make up and pass around neighbours and family

At first we had only what we had to hand. I read up and was advised that soaking thin cotton or paper towels in a strong salt solution and letting it dry, and using that as a liner between the layers, would kill any virus that got to it...so salty paper was duly made and pegged out on the washing line to dry
Eventually I cut up two of my unused 'non woven' material protective suits (some digs are dirty, as in biologically dirty) and used them to make the masks.
Elastic hair ties for the ear elastic bits and coated plastic garden wire for the shaping piece at the nose.

Some of the Spanish patterns were really excellent, let folks breath but not suffocate, shaping.
The Chinese ones just didn't fit; different shape needed over the nose, etc.,
A Ugandan lady posted a brilliant video of how to make them quickly in quantity

We lived through rather 'interesting' times I am rather glad we're past that, and truly hope we never have to go through it again, but I'll not hold my breath.....and I still keep the pantry stocked, and who doesn't have spare pack or two of loo roll stashed ?

 

[Woody girl]

There is still the fact that many thousands of people died with or from covid. Imagine, had we not locked down, distanced ourselves when out, no jabs, no masks. How many more would have died.
My grand father lost his sister, and his mother, a nurse, in the flu epidemic after the first World war. His father had been killed in the boer war a few months before he was born.
He was alone at a tender young age, and started work at 11yrs old to help support his widowed mother and his sister.both his parents( my great grandparents) had been only children, so he had no family left.
In those days, nobody realy understood the pandemic properly. Not much in the way of antibiotics and other medical help like we have nowadays. Nobody could afford not to work, so life carried on as normal, no ppe, no hand gels, maybe a scrap of cotton for a mask if you were nursing the sick.
Despite the pushback on covid restrictions, it was much more quickly understood, and some sort of vaccine produced to try and help the situation.
It wasn't perfect, but then think, people were very sick, many died, it was a pretty dire situation.
I think they did their best, but the time frame wasnt long enough to properly test the jab. It wasnt, and still isnt perfect.
if we have another event, and experimental jab, i wont be taking it untill proven, and i will just close my doors asap, and hunker down like i did before.
if whatever comes next gets me..so be it. I certainly won't be selfish enough to ignore the fact that if I got sick I could infect others by sticking my fingers up at sensible precautions because I didn't want to be controlled..who does? It's about being concerned for my fellow humans and not wishing to potentially put them in danger...plus hopefully, keeping away from the great unwashed, will keep me safe.
As Toddy said these plauges have always been with us, and its realy only since the middle of the last century that we have had any real control at all. A very short time realy, i think we have forgotten the inevitable fatalism about death that has only realy gone away since the national health was established. We expect to be cured, rather than expect to die.
There is a school of thought that worldwide, the ww1 flu epidemic killed more people than were killed in ww1.

 

[Broch]

Truth is though, none of those masks (even the medical ones) would stop virus sized particles from being transmitted - but it gave people a sense of (perhaps dangerous) confidence. They would need to be FFP2 or FFP3 (down to 0.3microns) to be of any use and they weren't generally available to the public.

As to the opening question - the only real change for us was we had to chat to the grandchildren on Zoom instead of visit. I loved the quiet and the lack of planes in the air (but, then, we live a pretty isolated life anyway!). It hasn't changed how we live, how we look at the world, or our life in general. Neither of us have ever caught Covid to our knowledge.

 

[Woody girl]

I was lucky enough to be gifted a box of proper medical ffp3 masks, and I still have some left. Stashed ready for whatever comes next.

Oh thanks for the reminder Toddy, I only have 53 toilet rolls left, I must remember to get some more to avoid the panic buying. I usualy have at least 100. Life can be pooey and I'll need plenty to wipe life down afterwards. (Terrible joke I know. I actualy have 8 in stock. One pack, less one roll on the holder)
I still have my home knitted cotton flannels I made during lockdown, if lack of loo rolls becomes a thing.

 

[Pattree]

Truth is though, none of those masks (even the medical ones) would stop virus sized particles from being transmitted -

Of course not.
However we don’t cough viruses, we cough fluid droplets that carry the virus and it doesn’t take much to stop those. Two wraps of a headscarf work fine

 

[Toddy]

I was lucky enough to be gifted a box of proper medical ffp3 masks, and I still have some left. Stashed ready for whatever comes next.

Oh thanks for the reminder Toddy, I only have 53 toilet rolls left, I must remember to get some more to avoid the panic buying. I usualy have at least 100. Life can be pooey and I'll need plenty to wipe life down afterwards. (Terrible joke I know. I actualy have 8 in stock. One pack, less one roll on the holder)
I still have my home knitted cotton flannels I made during lockdown, if lack of loo rolls becomes a thing.

I have four packs up the loft still...that's 48 loo rolls...and two four packs of kitchen towels. Neatly sealed up in polythene bags, tidy, just in case ....it's not unknown for us to get 3' of snow, so I'm just being a little prepared....oh, and I have a box of ffp3 masks up there too. Not ready to throw them away just yet.
I really can't see us using them, but hey, who would have thought we'd need any because of world plague anyway

 

[Herman30]

I read somewhere that (before covid) we got/get the yearly seasonal influenza that kill about 1000 persons every year in Finland. Mostly elder and weak people. And it is considered normal, not any kind of hystery there as was the case vid Covid.

 

[Pattree]

Here in UK the typical annual deaths that arise from respiratory diseases were regularly discussed when Covid morbidity figures were broadcast.

Since the pandemic very little if any national medical data seems to be broadcast or discussed.
(Measles is a big worry - I hope those who might avoid a Covid jab will allow their children a measles immunisation.)

May I step out of the OP for a word of appreciation for the soldiers who manned those primitive test centres in the early days. Isolation ward nurses and doctors were dying, no one knew what we were up against. It wasn’t what they signed up for.

 

[Toddy]

When I was very little the Sabbath still held sway, and every Sunday the whole atmosphere changed. No shops open, the swings and the merry go round in the playpark were chained up so they couldn't be used. No washing was allowed out on the lines, even the ropes had to be taken down.....and it was so quiet. No one made a lot of noise. We could hear the church bells way up on the top road.

That's what those first few weeks of lock down felt like.
Quiet, calm, still, nothing moving, everybody being formal, distant, restrained, and we could hear the church bells again, ringing out the quarters and the hours. No background of traffic or aircraft.

By the late sixties things were changing .....the swings were still locked up at night and on Sundays right into the seventies though

Different times; my Dad said the 1920's were worse, they'd to go to the Kirk three times too !....right enough the Boys Brigade actually trained with Martini Henry guns though, in the Kirk hall no less.

I hope we learned from the whole brouhaha, not just to when to be compliant, or when to obey, or when to object, to judge with discernment, but to understand and reason the why's thereof.

 

[MrEd]

Caused me burnout and overload and ultimately led to me jacking in my icu-centric career in 2022, and I very nearly left nursing all together. Then peaked my anxiety (that I had previously got under control) and I spiralled downwards. Took me a few years to claw my way back
Up and it’s only really the past 3-4months that I have started to feel ‘pre-pandemic’

I joke about ‘how it was good, I could still go out to work, I milked the overtime etcetera’ but that’s just masking. It really messed me up. My memory of all of 2020 is just one shift at work. Even now I walk into work and think of my 2 colleagues that died on our unit after being infected at work.

 

[Broch]

Of course not.
However we don’t cough viruses, we cough fluid droplets that carry the virus and it doesn’t take much to stop those. Two wraps of a headscarf work fine

I disagree, but that's OK, if you are satisfied with that theory. Viral loaded aerosols can stay airborne for hours and are less than 5microns in size. You can only be sure of filtering those (to a 94-95% probability) with FFP2 & 3 masks. Cloth masks provide some protection from spread from someone coughing but little protection for someone breathing in aerosols held in the air after someone coughing. There was a whole set of papers published about it post 2020 - (Milton et al., Lednicky et al. ....)

 

[Toddy]

Just under a quarter of a million people died of covid-19 in the UK....it works out at something like 1 in 280 people.

Masks made folks aware, folks kept their distance. I think that in itself made them worthwhile.
The covid virus was actually described as quite fragile, if it didn't reach someone in a moisture droplet, then it was most likely dead pretty rapidly. Just good basic hygiene really.

 

[Broch]

I agree, the masks were worth it just for that, it said "stay away" - although, people stayed further away from anyone not wearing one!

However, the virus can stay alive in a vapour droplet (i.e. less than 5 microns). Larger droplets fall to the floor very quickly anyway.