None of the products will make a worn out garmen waterproof again
They just help it shed surface water
They just help it shed surface water
Nikwax TX.Direct - does it work?
- Thread starter hughtrimble
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Interesting, I hadn't read that before on Paramo.That's what I'm seeking! Great beading.
Interestingly, Paramo's post-wash test is to see if it beads when still wet from the wash (which I'd have thought would mean the outer was already saturated).
Wash Care Instructions - Paramo
paramo-clothing.com
I have the Velez Evolution Smock. Basically, they are not waterproof. They rely on the DWR for 'water resistance'. They keep you dry by directional wicking and imo they work very well.
The 'pump lining' also allows water (as opposed to moisture vapour) to wick through to the outside whereas a membrane will only allow moisture vapour to pass through. As soon as any sweat condenses, it will be trapped inside the membrane coat until/unless it vaporizes again.
As with all coats, they are only one part of a layering system. iirc, in 'keeping warm, staying dry', Mike Parsons said that any coat is only 50% of keeping dry. It specifically mentions unsatisfied users of both membrane and non membrane coats and that it's simply a lack of understanding on the users part.
It irritates me when I see people commenting on Paramo's adverts that they are rubbish because they got wet, I even saw one person state that he got wet whilst stood in the rain watching a football match. If you're not exerting energy then a membrane coat is the better option. Under heavy exertion, I have been soaked with sweat in a membrane coat because presumably they just are not breathable enough to deal with large amounts of moisture.
Here is a photo of myself after I walked up to Corn Du and Pen Y Fan from Storey Arms, and then ran back down with 7kg on my back. I don't know how well the photo shows but trust me when I say that I was 90% dry. My Paramo literally wicked all the sweat out and away from my body. I was genuinely gobsmacked, I've never been that dry doing similar exercise in a membrane coat before.
Not quite so, Sympatex and some PU coatings operate on a different principle. They can pass water as liquid through but they work best with a fairly large temp gradient. Their breathability is not as good as some of the holey membranes but they are mechanically stronger. Sympatex at least seems to work much better in shoes than GT.
Hmmm ... I think it has been around at least 25 years, I think John Fenna might have some practical experience on Sympatex in cloths.
Nikwax tx direct is temperamental stuff to get working. It is not just the case of following instructions, you have to be fastidious in your process.
WRT wasshing machines, it is hard to get them fully clean of normal detergents and involves a little bit more than a high temp, long boil wash setting IMHO. So I stopped using them at all as I have had such poor success with machine based cleaning and treating. Unless you have a spare, plumbed in washing machine you can keep just for reproofing of course. Some have the money for that I reckon, i don't.
So I have a large bucket and lean into the shower to use the shower head to fill and rinse after. I fill it and add the tech wash. I swirl and move the garment around for a long time, longer than youy would think it needs. If I don't then it won't work that well. I try shortcuts and only have to redo it all again so take your time and add a bit more. Then I pour it away and squeeze excess mixture out. I hang it on the holder for the shower head to drip awhile. Then I rinse the bucjket fully until no hint of the wash. I then fill with warm water again and rinse then let the garment drip awhile as I pour the sud filled water away. Then I fully rinse the bucket again and fill it with warm or even cold water to rinse. I repeat this until absolutely no suds come out.
BTW the washing is done until I squeeze the garment and no more dirty water comes out. I wear a black rucksack at times and it has made my velez adventure lite black on the contact points wo I really have to clean it well.
AFter fully cleaned and fully rinsed I might let drip for a bit to take a break. This is actually hard workj if I am doing it right and not taking shortcuts.
I then reproof with warm water and leave to soak in for some time. I then hang it up to drip. Paramo analogy fabric tends to allow the water to drip to the lowest point so it will dry to a damp state quickly. At this point I might hang outside if a warm day or if it has dried enough I hang it in the cupboard with a small radiator in and the boiler. This is not that hot space but it is warmer than the house. I also have a few coat hooks above a kitchen radiator so that also gets warm and dries it out quickly. That is if the heating is on of course. If not I leave to a warm day and hang outside.
This is not about setting it in but about drying it out in a more effective way I think. More heat = quicker dry and that is it not setting in.
BTW I have tried a tumble drier and that gets patchy succerss which IMHO is more about ther washing and proofing stage being good or less good. I have had a paramo get better at beading with that rather ineffective drier (It came with the house but has since been passed on to someone for a fiver). You do not need to use heat and IMHO it is about the wash, rinse and proofing stage. Machines do not work if they have had any normal detergent in IME. Getting hands on with it can work but it is hard work and takes time to do it well and guarantee good results. I do not always do it well. I get impatient and take shortcuts like telling myself it has been rinsed enough when it really has not. When that happens I kick myself as the outer fabric fails to bead up. I know I am messing it up when I do tht but I never learn all the time. No shortcuts with getting it right.
A whlle back you could take your paramo or other garment to an Alpkit shop and get the DWR reproofed for not that much. AIUI Paramo will do that too for a price. IF you have a lot of paramo needing it then perhaps contact them for a bulk discount in that??? They will return it like new and AIUI they do minor repairs in the price or contact you to advise on what is needed if a bit more.
I know everyone here is self reliant but if they are not getting good results and their several hundred pounds outdoors garment no longer works well then perhaps the cost of Paramo doing it or other pro service doing it is actually saving you money in the long term (not having to replace them)??
WRT wasshing machines, it is hard to get them fully clean of normal detergents and involves a little bit more than a high temp, long boil wash setting IMHO. So I stopped using them at all as I have had such poor success with machine based cleaning and treating. Unless you have a spare, plumbed in washing machine you can keep just for reproofing of course. Some have the money for that I reckon, i don't.
So I have a large bucket and lean into the shower to use the shower head to fill and rinse after. I fill it and add the tech wash. I swirl and move the garment around for a long time, longer than youy would think it needs. If I don't then it won't work that well. I try shortcuts and only have to redo it all again so take your time and add a bit more. Then I pour it away and squeeze excess mixture out. I hang it on the holder for the shower head to drip awhile. Then I rinse the bucjket fully until no hint of the wash. I then fill with warm water again and rinse then let the garment drip awhile as I pour the sud filled water away. Then I fully rinse the bucket again and fill it with warm or even cold water to rinse. I repeat this until absolutely no suds come out.
BTW the washing is done until I squeeze the garment and no more dirty water comes out. I wear a black rucksack at times and it has made my velez adventure lite black on the contact points wo I really have to clean it well.
AFter fully cleaned and fully rinsed I might let drip for a bit to take a break. This is actually hard workj if I am doing it right and not taking shortcuts.
I then reproof with warm water and leave to soak in for some time. I then hang it up to drip. Paramo analogy fabric tends to allow the water to drip to the lowest point so it will dry to a damp state quickly. At this point I might hang outside if a warm day or if it has dried enough I hang it in the cupboard with a small radiator in and the boiler. This is not that hot space but it is warmer than the house. I also have a few coat hooks above a kitchen radiator so that also gets warm and dries it out quickly. That is if the heating is on of course. If not I leave to a warm day and hang outside.
This is not about setting it in but about drying it out in a more effective way I think. More heat = quicker dry and that is it not setting in.
BTW I have tried a tumble drier and that gets patchy succerss which IMHO is more about ther washing and proofing stage being good or less good. I have had a paramo get better at beading with that rather ineffective drier (It came with the house but has since been passed on to someone for a fiver). You do not need to use heat and IMHO it is about the wash, rinse and proofing stage. Machines do not work if they have had any normal detergent in IME. Getting hands on with it can work but it is hard work and takes time to do it well and guarantee good results. I do not always do it well. I get impatient and take shortcuts like telling myself it has been rinsed enough when it really has not. When that happens I kick myself as the outer fabric fails to bead up. I know I am messing it up when I do tht but I never learn all the time. No shortcuts with getting it right.
A whlle back you could take your paramo or other garment to an Alpkit shop and get the DWR reproofed for not that much. AIUI Paramo will do that too for a price. IF you have a lot of paramo needing it then perhaps contact them for a bulk discount in that??? They will return it like new and AIUI they do minor repairs in the price or contact you to advise on what is needed if a bit more.
I know everyone here is self reliant but if they are not getting good results and their several hundred pounds outdoors garment no longer works well then perhaps the cost of Paramo doing it or other pro service doing it is actually saving you money in the long term (not having to replace them)??
Here is a good Webinar with Mike Parsons where he discusses garments and at 25mins he talks about wicking layers, directional wicking layers and a little on Paramo garments.
-A little off topic sorry, but I thought some here would appreciate it.
-A little off topic sorry, but I thought some here would appreciate it.
Regarding soaking in a bucket for re proofing.
Left to its own devices, a Paramo jacket will fill a bucket and probably trap some air, causing some folds of fabric to sit up out of the Nikwax water while the rest soaks. I weight my garments down during the soak. Two litre bottles of water work but rocks and hunks of smooth metal are better. Anything to keep all fabric submerged.
Left to its own devices, a Paramo jacket will fill a bucket and probably trap some air, causing some folds of fabric to sit up out of the Nikwax water while the rest soaks. I weight my garments down during the soak. Two litre bottles of water work but rocks and hunks of smooth metal are better. Anything to keep all fabric submerged.
A brilliant explanation and it all makes sense to me now. Am hoping to buy either the Alta3 or the Evolution Hybrid smock but was worried about the efficacy of re-proofing it. You have laid my mind to rest now. Just a couple of questions,forgive me if I am being pedantic/repetetive?....
- how big a bucket for washing?
- how many minutes swirling the garment? 30 mins?
- How many times do you refill the bucket till no more dirt comes from the garment? I am imagining 3 or 4 times?
I have owned the Evolution Hybrid since Christmas and bought an Alta for my girlfriend. I absolutely love the Evolution Hybrid, I love the different options you have as far as ventilation goes. I can unzip both of the front zips and open the front right up, it's fantastic. The Alta is also a really lovely coat. I also recently bought the Paramo Enduro Windproof and think it's fantastic also.
Goes without saying that you need to wet it out. A garment cannot be proofed if it doesn;'t get wet throughout and it is easy to see when it has dry patches. Fortunately Paramo is not a barrier and if you have done the bucket thing then you will have seen the air pushing through the fabric when you push it down firmlu
I don't really know how long I wassh for. It feels a long time when I am doing it but I am not known for my patience. That is probably why it does not always work for me. My trick is to wash for as long as I think it needs then resist the urge to move on to the next staage and do a few more minutes. If I say it wass 30 minutes it could just as well have been 15 as I really do not count. One thing though, mine is bright orange and the black rucsack I use with it hass turned it black onthee lower back. So I keep washing until that has faded enough for me to not mind or has gone completely. So it likely varies.
Since I wash in thee shower I tend to rinse with the shower head initially to get most of the suds off before rinsing in the bucket with usually cold water because it is quicker than waiting for the water to heat up sometimes. I do often end up with very cold hands from the rinsing so I am guessing it is a few moree than 4 rinses.. I rinse until there is no sign of soap bubbling up when I squeeze the water through the fabric. Can't do that with membranes though!! I then rinse another time.
I then meassure out the right amount of TX direct and water, very approximate. If it says two garments er bottle usually just fill the bucket and empty the bottle out to wash twwo garments or half full bucket and half empty bottle. I then swirl, wet out and soak. How long? Again no idea but a lot longer than you need as I tend to forget I have started it and that it needs to be rinsed. In fact I think I don't rinse after proofing just dangle dry in the shower. Warning, the shower bed needs rinsing before using after this. IT can get slippy!!
After it is drip dried enough I put it in a warm boiler cupboard or hang above the kitchen radiator. Or hang outside if warm, sunny and dry.
No idea if this works well for you but it does or can work well for me.
I got the biggeest bucket my local store had which is not that big TBH. A bit bigger than the household ones say a supermarket sells.
I don't really know how long I wassh for. It feels a long time when I am doing it but I am not known for my patience. That is probably why it does not always work for me. My trick is to wash for as long as I think it needs then resist the urge to move on to the next staage and do a few more minutes. If I say it wass 30 minutes it could just as well have been 15 as I really do not count. One thing though, mine is bright orange and the black rucsack I use with it hass turned it black onthee lower back. So I keep washing until that has faded enough for me to not mind or has gone completely. So it likely varies.
Since I wash in thee shower I tend to rinse with the shower head initially to get most of the suds off before rinsing in the bucket with usually cold water because it is quicker than waiting for the water to heat up sometimes. I do often end up with very cold hands from the rinsing so I am guessing it is a few moree than 4 rinses.. I rinse until there is no sign of soap bubbling up when I squeeze the water through the fabric. Can't do that with membranes though!! I then rinse another time.
I then meassure out the right amount of TX direct and water, very approximate. If it says two garments er bottle usually just fill the bucket and empty the bottle out to wash twwo garments or half full bucket and half empty bottle. I then swirl, wet out and soak. How long? Again no idea but a lot longer than you need as I tend to forget I have started it and that it needs to be rinsed. In fact I think I don't rinse after proofing just dangle dry in the shower. Warning, the shower bed needs rinsing before using after this. IT can get slippy!!
After it is drip dried enough I put it in a warm boiler cupboard or hang above the kitchen radiator. Or hang outside if warm, sunny and dry.
No idea if this works well for you but it does or can work well for me.
I omce owned a paramo windshirt. It wass fully featured and more like a waterproof than a windshirt but it was a poor design and fit for me. The hood was well designed but in use in strong winds or even modest winds the excess fabirc that could not be cinched in flapped so strongly it whipped against thee face and stung more than not hjaving it up. Of course then if youha d it down it blow around more.
I ended up not using it at all. It is somewhere in the house now but I have no interest in looking for it. As good as useless for me.
I ended up not using it at all. It is somewhere in the house now but I have no interest in looking for it. As good as useless for me.
I’ve used it several times and it’s worked satisfactorily each time, i think Fabsil is very good too, maybe better.
This is incredibly interesting, and I'm on my second background play through. There are some nuggets in there which aren't immediately apparent to boot.
I am going to email him some questions as he said some things that I want to understand, especially about risks of back-wicking when reproofing garments when wet.
It's good to know that I've not been confused without reason regarding wicking. What an info-packed presentation. Thank you for sharing this Dan.
I'm intrigued by the windshirt concept, so am on the lookout for one. But I agree that Paramo's cut can be pretty peculiar.
I have a Parano Fuera wind smock. High cut under the arms to the point it was almost impossible to put on. Was able to get some Paramo shell fabric and insert a diamond gusset under the arms. Worked better.
I've recently bought a fleece of theirs, and at first it's uncomfortable, but after a few minutes of wearing it, it seems to settle in! I think it's because the fabric clings to my t shirt underneath or vice versa, but after a while they seem to settle. It is very close fitting though, as intended.
Thanks @Paul_B those are really helpful posts. I’ve had lousy results every time, though the coat keeps me dry anyway.
I have a seriously old Keela ventile, bought around 2010 that’s still ok. I send it off to Keela when the cuffs fray or a pocket tears and it’s really been a sound investment. I spent around £300 on the Halcon and only did so because I’m hoping for the same mileage.
People scoffed and gasped at the prices I paid but a 15 year old coat that cost £300 plus occasional spa treatments is peanuts and saves a massive amount in waste and production costs, unlike its cheaper counterparts.
I found that pic of the textile dump in the Atacama Desert again the other day, it’s horrific what ends up there, by virtue signalling Westerners who proudly claim they’ve recycled or donated to the same third world countries that make the stuff on the cheap.
I have a seriously old Keela ventile, bought around 2010 that’s still ok. I send it off to Keela when the cuffs fray or a pocket tears and it’s really been a sound investment. I spent around £300 on the Halcon and only did so because I’m hoping for the same mileage.
People scoffed and gasped at the prices I paid but a 15 year old coat that cost £300 plus occasional spa treatments is peanuts and saves a massive amount in waste and production costs, unlike its cheaper counterparts.
I found that pic of the textile dump in the Atacama Desert again the other day, it’s horrific what ends up there, by virtue signalling Westerners who proudly claim they’ve recycled or donated to the same third world countries that make the stuff on the cheap.
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