Advice on sturdy-totally-waterproof rain jacket?

[VikingGirl]

I have this issue where the sturdier the rain jackets I choose, the less waterproof they are.

Can someone recomend a proper balance between the two or something I'm totally unaware of?

Once I've used this kind of deep sea fishermen rain jackets which are pretty much made of plastic, and they are awesome, but they are uncomfortable as hell.
All those fancy Columbia, North Face Gore Tex crap that goes for about 400 euros here, doesn't stand for more than a few months the kind of scratching I'm used in the woods, and I'm tired of throwing money away.

Would someone please let me find the light?
Specially empirical based suggestions please.

Warm regards. The viking girl

 

[Klenchblaize]

In a word: VENTILE

K

 

[woof]

Ridgeline monsoon

Rob

 

[Toddy]

Waxed jacket.
Mine's proven to be bombproof. It takes on woods, fences, hedges, ditches, near fires, and it's neither torn, snagged, leaky, burnt or delaminating.
In the time I've used the wax one, I've also killed three goretex, two triple point ceramic, and a batch of generic 'waterproofs'.

The wax isn't light, it isn't breathable (unless you suss out how to ventilate it ) and it's sweaty if I'm working hard. I have wool lining in mine though, and that really, really, makes a difference.
It's incredibly comfortable though, it totally stops the wind and rain, and it's a very practical garment.

M

 

[Jaeger]

Hello Viking Girl,

Finding 'the' - 'breathable', waterproof, hawthorn/bramble rugged jacket that doesn't cost a fortune and/or weigh a tonne is like searching for the Holy Grail, in fact as has often been stated on this site - it is almost impossible to achieve in a single garment.

If you are active, any waterproof clothing including the so called breath-ables will suffer from condensation build up on the inside even if they don't water in from the outside - and most do sooner or later.

When relatively immobile I have had success using the Austrian Army issue single layer Goretex jacket - 2003 (KA03) version (NOT 1997 version as this scags on thorns and bramble terribly!). You can pick them up surplus reasonably priced. (But it is synthetic so beware heat sources!).

When on the move I use a non-waterproof, KA03 Austrian Army Alpine jacket - Polycotton, mega tough, inexpensive modified for light/medium rain (see my posts re 'Best BC jacket parts 1 to 3). If the rain is very heavy I stop and put on a poncho or put up a brolly and let it pass.

The plus side to all of the above is that if you do damage it, it is cheap to replace.

If I know that I have to keep moving I revert to old Brit military practice - I use a lightweight base layer, a 'breathable' blouson-type waterproof jacket worn BENEATH a single layer Ventile jacket and make sure that I vent well. (But I'm fortunate in already having a Ventile jacket because the price of them (new) is ridiculous!). And be aware that even Ventile will scag on pointy stuff and rip if it is single layer, the wrong weight or well worn and that's another reason why it is best used double layered - (but the price goes up).

Similarly, Toddy's point about her wax cotton being lined is why it has probably withstood pointy stuff attacks - a lining can limit damage to the outer. I have had an unlined Barbour Durham wax cotton jacket rip from collar to waist on hawthorn yet a lined version suffer far less damage on barbed wire.

Hope this helps.

 

[VikingGirl]

Waxed jacket.
Mine's proven to be bombproof. It takes on woods, fences, hedges, ditches, near fires, and it's neither torn, snagged, leaky, burnt or delaminating.
In the time I've used the wax one, I've also killed three goretex, two triple point ceramic, and a batch of generic 'waterproofs'.

The wax isn't light, it isn't breathable (unless you suss out how to ventilate it ) and it's sweaty if I'm working hard. I have wool lining in mine though, and that really, really, makes a difference.
It's incredibly comfortable though, it totally stops the wind and rain, and it's a very practical garment.

M

Awesome Toddy, would you be so kind of recommending a brand in particular?, I don't mind paying high prices.
I've never heard of wax jackets before but for sure I would be giving it a try! Thanks so much!

 

[VikingGirl]

Hello Viking Girl,

Finding 'the' - 'breathable', waterproof, hawthorn/bramble rugged jacket that doesn't cost a fortune and/or weigh a tonne is like searching for the Holy Grail, in fact as has often been stated on this site - it is almost impossible to achieve in a single garment.

If you are active, any waterproof clothing including the so called breath-ables will suffer from condensation build up on the inside even if they don't water in from the outside - and most do sooner or later.

When relatively immobile I have had success using the Austrian Army issue single layer Goretex jacket - 2003 (KA03) version (NOT 1997 version as this scags on thorns and bramble terribly!). You can pick them up surplus reasonably priced. (But it is synthetic so beware heat sources!).

When on the move I use a non-waterproof, KA03 Austrian Army Alpine jacket - Polycotton, mega tough, inexpensive modified for light/medium rain (see my posts re 'Best BC jacket parts 1 to 3). If the rain is very heavy I stop and put on a poncho or put up a brolly and let it pass.

The plus side to all of the above is that if you do damage it, it is cheap to replace.

If I know that I have to keep moving I revert to old Brit military practice - I use a lightweight base layer, a 'breathable' blouson-type waterproof jacket worn BENEATH a single layer Ventile jacket and make sure that I vent well. (But I'm fortunate in already having a Ventile jacket because the price of them (new) is ridiculous!). And be aware that even Ventile will scag on pointy stuff and rip if it is single layer, the wrong weight or well worn and that's another reason why it is best used double layered - (but the price goes up).

Similarly, Toddy's point about her wax cotton being lined is why it has probably withstood pointy stuff attacks - a lining can limit damage to the outer. I have had an unlined Barbour Durham wax cotton jacket rip from collar to waist on hawthorn yet a lined version suffer far less damage on barbed wire.

Hope this helps.

Jaeger I really appreciate your explanation, although I still don't get how the lining prevents damage to the outer layer on the wax jackets.. I've never used one that's maybe the reason, would you mind explaining the logic behind that argument? I thank you in advance.

 

[Janne]

You want a Barbour waxed jacket.
They lose the water proofness on the shoulder seams quite quickly ( anyway, mine does) but that is easily fixed with an easy application of the appropriate wax.

They last forever too, so it is a good investment.

 

[bob_the_bomb]

Awesome Toddy, would you be so kind of recommending a brand in particular?, I don't mind paying high prices.
I've never heard of wax jackets before but for sure I would be giving it a try! Thanks so much!

Barbour.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Nice65]

Ridgeline monsoon

Rob

Agreed. Ridgeline Elite 2 twice as breathable as the original, the Bushmaster even more so due to the pit zips. Favoured by deerstalkers, so get put through their paces. I prefer the pocket set up of my Elite 2 to the big front pocket on the Bushmaster.

They're pricy, but very trustworthy.

 

[GadgetUK437]

Driza-Bone,

Heavy as a brick, bombproof and, with the addition of a wide brim hat, like having a mobile tent.
Mine rotted out after 18 years of rewaxing.

 

[sunndog]

i'm an ex gamekeeper and on shoot days we have to just push through whatever hawthorn or bramble was in the way, no time for going around stuff when something goes wrong
Every single one of us wore either wax or tweed jackets with lined wax chaps. They were the only thing to survive
If i were you for real hard use i'd go for wax and a cheap waterproof for when its really hammering down. I don't know of a brand thats wool lined, most are cotton and quite cold to wear....toddy made her own i think

 

[Jaeger]

Hi Viking Girl,

A waxed-cotton jacket is exactly what the name says - it is a cotton material (usually not rip-stop) and as thin as the manufacturers can get away with because adding wax to it thickens the material up (The heavier a cotton material that they start with, plus the addition of wax makes for a heavier garment).

Two systems of the type are The Barbour and Fjallraven - practically the same but using slightly different constituents in their respective waxes.
From experience the Fjallraven G1000 material has proven slightly stronger than that used by Barbour but both have easily succumbed to barbed wire rash in single layer and neither in single layer no matter how well I have waxed them has proven to be waterproof with hard use beyond a day! (Keeping them well waxed has seemed to limit wear from minor abrasion though).

Waxed-cotton garments are not breathable and if not kept constantly waxed will leak and hold water (and sap heat!) just the same way that denim jeans do. (Hence Sunndog’s ref to them being cold - Ever seen serious mountaineers/rescue teams in waxed-cotton?).

Most people don't notice how leaky waxed cotton can be (especially on shoulders and back if carrying a rucksack where the combination of straps, back-pad and body heat seems to dissipate the wax) unless they are out in constant rain for days on end because the linings of the jacket can handle small amounts of moisture which spreads out and disappears whilst wearing them or when they are hanging on the coat peg at the end of a single days outing - my unlined Barbour Durham is a classic example and probably why Barbour stopped making them years ago.

If the cheaper ex mil surplus direction doesn’t suit you (and you have deep pockets!) I would have to side with Klenchblaize on the Ventile – but double layer – very tough, quiet, tactile, long lasting and less maintenance. Why not ask if a member has one for sale/exchange?

As for how the lining helps to limit the damage to the outer -
Consider a thin outer cotton layer (as stated - not rip-stop) beneath which is possibly a thermal layer and then the inner lining which is probably polycotton. A barb/thorn goes through the (weak) outer layer and the inner (stronger) lining layer(s). The combination of all two/three layers is stronger than a single outer and limits the damage to the outer.

 

[sunndog]

Jeager, wax jackets are usually cold even before they get wet, but if you are working hard in rough conditions you are gonna end up wet one way or another

 

[woof]

Wax cotton is a good choice i do keep 2 in my van for work(i'm a gardener) i would choose the "colonial" makes such as backhouse(now owned by barbour)or drizabone, the shoulder capes on these brands make a huge difference to the waterproofness of the coat.

Rob

 

[Toddy]

Barbour or make your own. That way you have the wool lining of your choice.

Things to look for on the jacket though.
Make sure the pockets are properly covered with a flap to stop rain getting in.
Check that it does have a decent hood, and it's better lined, and that the hood fits on outside the collar, so you can fold the collar up and it'll stay draught free around your neck.
The cuffs are usually lined with moleskin. Looks good, nice and soft agin the skin, but it needs to fold down to just wax when it's pouring, not be sewn into a turnup to catch the water. Try and get a decent storm flap over the front too, one that studs down beside the zip.
A double ended zip is better than a single. It lets you get into the inner layers (or squat down on your hunkers) without opening everything up and losing all the body heat or letting the rain in.

That's pretty much it really. Tough as old boots, develops characteristic patina put it into the sunshine to soften it up, or use a hair dryer, the wax irons on well enough though….messy, use an old towel and tinfoil under it over the ironing board. Clean off the iron when you're done with meths.

That said, I've done my jacket with new wax exactly twice in all these years.

I know we've all said Barbour, but any generic one will do as a trial to see how you get on with it. Our local 'outlet' store that mostly caters for the headscarf and bunnet brigade sells fairly decent wax jackets for under fifty quid. I bought one as my mucky one, for gardening, digging, that kind of thing, and it's been very good indeed. It might not last the thirty years the Barbour one ought, but, then again, it might.

Actually, ebay might be your friend….under forty quid, doesn't have a hood though… I have a wax hat that matches my jacket when I can't be bothered having a hood up all the time. Both work. Both keep the rain from going down my neck

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LADIES-WO...hash=item1eae63d0ea:m:mGiQVRIeVFPTVaNDUYurm_Q

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8...vptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_5mdimv569w_b

There's a knack to venting them. Think of it like an Inuit parka. If it's tied at hem and neck then it gets damp inside, so open up both a bit and move around, and the heat from the body will dry them off.
It's not 'terribly' effective with the padded cotton lined ones, but it does work.
I made my own, and I lined it with good quality wool flannel. It makes a tremendous difference, and the only reason I can think of that the manufacturer's don't do it are a) cost, and b) the wool will not last as long as the wax cotton and eventually will need replacing.
That said, for the sheer amount of hard wear the jackets take, they don't owe us a halfpenny when they're finally done.

M

 

[Robbi]

The answer to your problems.........

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=140360

 

[VikingGirl]

Hi Viking Girl,

A waxed-cotton jacket is exactly what the name says - it is a cotton material (usually not rip-stop) and as thin as the manufacturers can get away with because adding wax to it thickens the material up (The heavier a cotton material that they start with, plus the addition of wax makes for a heavier garment).

Two systems of the type are The Barbour and Fjallraven - practically the same but using slightly different constituents in their respective waxes.
From experience the Fjallraven G1000 material has proven slightly stronger than that used by Barbour but both have easily succumbed to barbed wire rash in single layer and neither in single layer no matter how well I have waxed them has proven to be waterproof with hard use beyond a day! (Keeping them well waxed has seemed to limit wear from minor abrasion though).

Waxed-cotton garments are not breathable and if not kept constantly waxed will leak and hold water (and sap heat!) just the same way that denim jeans do. (Hence Sunndog’s ref to them being cold - Ever seen serious mountaineers/rescue teams in waxed-cotton?).

Most people don't notice how leaky waxed cotton can be (especially on shoulders and back if carrying a rucksack where the combination of straps, back-pad and body heat seems to dissipate the wax) unless they are out in constant rain for days on end because the linings of the jacket can handle small amounts of moisture which spreads out and disappears whilst wearing them or when they are hanging on the coat peg at the end of a single days outing - my unlined Barbour Durham is a classic example and probably why Barbour stopped making them years ago.

If the cheaper ex mil surplus direction doesn’t suit you (and you have deep pockets!) I would have to side with Klenchblaize on the Ventile – but double layer – very tough, quiet, tactile, long lasting and less maintenance. Why not ask if a member has one for sale/exchange?

As for how the lining helps to limit the damage to the outer -
Consider a thin outer cotton layer (as stated - not rip-stop) beneath which is possibly a thermal layer and then the inner lining which is probably polycotton. A barb/thorn goes through the (weak) outer layer and the inner (stronger) lining layer(s). The combination of all two/three layers is stronger than a single outer and limits the damage to the outer.

Jaeger, thanks again. Very much appreciated.

Still, I just can't shake this feeling there must be something better out there than a waxed jacket. Are we sure this is the strongest material available, it doesn't look at all to me.
Of course I have no experience with it, but I had the idea there must be something better or with lower maintanance.

I really don't care at all about breathability nor weight, I just want the best that is out there, in the World, a product I can buy a rely on it for as long as possible.
When I'm in the bush, I stay under the cabin most days, so is not like I'm hiking every single day under rainy weather.

But whenever I do need to use my rain jacket, I don't want to be watching out for trees and branches not to screw up my garment.

Are then wax jackets the best suggestion for what I'm looking for?

 

[homesicksteve]

In a word: VENTILE

Country Innovation Rover for me. Great jacket & service. (no affiliation)

Drawback - very heavy when wet & takes an age to dry...

http://www.countryinnovation.com/clothing/jackets/show/all

 

[woodsorrel]

Hi VikingGirl,

I don't know if it's available to you in the U.K., but I really like L. L. Bean:

Here are two 3-in-1 jackets. One has a zip-out PrimaLoft liner and the other has a zip-out fleece liner. There are nicer colors than the ones shown. But Fall is when all the colors are in stock:

http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/8343...hallenger-3-in-1-jacket&feat=112973-pprrright

http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/1129...R0&page=storm-chaser-3-in-1-jacket-multicolor

I have the men's version of the Storm Chaser jacket in Loden (dark green). It is very rugged and is longer than a traditional "trail" rain jacket.

- Woodsorrel