Bakestones again

[tombear]

Hi Folks
today I had a hour in the Rochdale MBCs reserve museum collection, photographing and measuring.

They had dug out for me a couple of original 18th / very early 19th C mudstone bakestones for me and two of three early kitchen/oatcake wooden ladles. Unfortunately they couldn't locate the third one that's on their books but I do have A Photo to work from.

I'm hoping to make my own so I'll be doing a tutorial for each when I can.

ATB

Tom

 

[Rich D]

Any chance of posting up a couple of photos of the original ones. Did they turn out to be made of the local rock?

 

[tombear]

Will do when I've download the camera. Both of these seam to be from Delph about 6 miles away from Rochdale if I remember right. They were carted from there all over the region. I've found no corroboration that they were ever made at Baxenden , over Accrington way. Rochdale was the local centre for selling cloth woven in the surrounding valleys and so there was quite a lot of traffic with plenty of spare capacity for carrying goods like bakestones on the outward part of the journeys.

Both are between 1/2 inch at the edges to about 9/16th in the middle and similarly sized, one is 13 1/2 " by 14 3/4" and the other 12" by 12 1/8".

ATB

TOM

 

[Toddy]

Good stuff
Interested to see the photos too.

M

 

[tombear]

Bakestone no. 1 top

Bakesrtone no. 1 underside

Bakestone no. 1 edge

Bakestone no. 2 Top

Bakestone no. 2 text

Bakestone no. 2 underside.

The tooling marks were made with some sort of gouge, probably outcanal a inch wide. Possibly a very narrow and shallow bowl adze.

 

[Toddy]

I keep saying it; we don't do enough, or know enough, about the uses of our native stones.

Excellent details there Tom

We say the Vikings (and some others) were aceramic, in that they carved their cooking pots etc., rather than made them from fired clay.
Those mudstone bakestones were carved, were obviously absolutely sound, and they retained the heat without shattering.
Good stuff, very good stuff
Who needs to make pottery or cast metal when the stone is available and workable ?

Thanks for the write up and photos

M

 

[tombear]

Discovered theres a museum at Saddleworth, where the quarries are. Guess where we will be going?!

http://www.saddleworthmuseum.co.uk/home/opening-times/

The ladles were interesting, just like ones I'd seen in very early 19 th C illustrations. Remarkably thick bases and walls. More on that when I start making a copy....


ATB

Tom

 

[Robson Valley]

I am delighted to see those, particularly the dressed faces. Unexpected.
The top appears almost grooved when compared with the bottom texture.
Some Pacific Northwest wood carvers do both of those patterns.

Because of the shock of the strike force with an adze, I would
be a lot more confident with either a gouge or an abrasive stone.

Any information on how soft the fresh stone might be/have been?

 

[pentrekeeper]

The stone may be Soapstone.

http://geology.com/rocks/soapstone.shtml

 

[tombear]

The stone is very soft when first exposed to air, it has to be stored underwater when its not actually being worked and emediately fired. If its not the surface starts to fall apart. It's a fine grained sedimentary rock.

Assuming I can even get hold of the raw materials now I have doubts about being able to make a mudstone bakestone without more practice than I can merit it. Just to get one stone to use may not be a viable proposition. It was a skilled trade after all

Making the ladles looks a lot easier! The wood on the originals is pretty degraded and dirty from age so I've no idea what it is. So I'm going for sycamore if I get it. I suspect the internal bowl was turned from seaoned wood as there's no distortion from shrinkage and the walls and handle are quite thick, the handles are about a inch square, which is in my limited experience is begging for cracks in green wood.

ATB

Tom

 

[Robson Valley]

Quarry a big piece, carefully saw it into slabs and store in water.
The textured surface treatment would eliminate saw marks completely.

I carve some steatite soapstone, quarried here in the Pacific Northwest.
Every piece looks unlike these bakestones. Plus, the texture, wet or dry,
never changes with age. Just a handsaw and a screwdriver and you're a soapstone carver!

 

[tombear]

Cheers!

I'm waiting to hear back from the Saddleworth Museum. I know they have bakestones from their website but I suspect they have plenty of information. The trade only died out in the 1930s, much to my suprise. I had thought the cheap iron bakestones would have killed off the trade in the 1860s or earlier.

From a section of song relating to a pub in the area there's mention of a tool called a shave, I'd like to see one of those if they have one. I've some worn down gouges that don't merit full restorations to go in my sets so I could probably use them as a basis for making a shave, if its at all like I suspect.

Being a bear of very little brain its only just occurred to me why the marks on the base are so much deeper and cruder than those on the top, its to increase the surface area absorbing heat, like the corrugated parts on fancy kettles and some of my camping pots. D'oh!

Traditionallty the stones were held above fires on a metal stand in houses, farms often had dedicated stone built ranges for a better word. I've seen a pic of a iron job to hold a round one but need to do some research on how they were held on the late 19th c in the fire place iron ranges and on the earlier open fireplace sort of cooking set ups.

ATB

TOM

 

[bigbear]

Fascinating thread, like Toddy says, we have lost so much that was basic craft knowledge to generations not long gone. How did we let this happen ? Pop tarts, Brevill toasted sandwich makers, electric toasters, shop bought bread...........
foams at mouth while dragged away by his carers.

 

[tombear]

We went over to Saddleworth today, mainly to go to the museum, not a bad little place, £4 for a family ticket up to 7 bodies, there's one display on bakestones, pics to follow when I've downloaded the camera. Nothing in the shop, I'd hoped there would have been something in print on the subject. Anyroad I'll get in touch with them again to see if there is owt. There's a bed frame style drying rack in a reproduction of a early 19th C kitchen .

We had look about the town, plenty of interesting buildings, weavers cottages etc. I picked up two pairs of unworn outdoors trousers for the lads for a song and a unused Hendersons Relish apron for £1.50 which made my trip!

On getting home the PO had delivered a excellent small book "The Staffordshire Oatcake, a history" by Pamela Sambrook

Theres a whole chapter on bakestones and i'll pass on owt I learn that's relevant.

more soon.

ATB

Tom

 

[tombear]

I saw more bakestones at Saddleworth, two were about a foot to 14 inches square.

which were pretty consistant with the Rochdale examples. The third was much bigger, maybe 2 foot square (it was behind glass).

Saddly I couldnt spot any tools relevent to the trade but in a mock up of a 18th/early 19th C kitchen there was a oatcake drying rack suspended infront of the fire place.

The texts which went with the displays said rhe earliest references ro the trade were in the early 1300s and it carried on until the 1930s when the last quarry became a refuse tip.

More when I have it.

ATb

Tom

 

[Macaroon]

Interesting stuff this, thanks for taking the time

 

[Joonsy]

Interesting stuff (as is anything to do with Staffordshire oatcakes, love them). There is a gritstone bakestone in Shugborough Hall on Cannock Chase (well there was when I lived there in 70s/80s I imagine it’s still there), it was taken out of a farm near Leek where it was used for making the oatcakes.

http://www.search.staffspasttrack.o...xhibition/standard/default.asp?resource=25099

 

[Tengu]

could one be made from slate?

 

[tombear]

Slate was used in Wales I've read. I suppose they would have to make sure it was utterly dry and there was no air gaps.

'been distracted so got no further sorting me sen a backston' ( as I've discovered is the correct pronunciation back in North Derbyshire ) The ex washstand top unfortunately got blown over in the last storm and now is so much crazy paving .

ATB

Tom

 

[Wayland]

Great thread.

Delph is just over the hill from us and there is a small old quarry just off Grains Road between us and them which I was once told by a local man was a bake stone quarry. ( I was also told that the village name is derived from such quarrying or "delving" but I don't know how true either statement is.)

It's on a local farmers land and he seems to be slowly filling it with disused vehicles at the moment.