My survival kit, what else do i need?
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Honestly, I'm glad someone admits to not carrying a knife. I usually do myself but frankly, I virtually never use one. But I'm not very survival oriented. I'm more comfort and convenience oriented. After thinking about this for, oh, maybe thirty seconds, I believe the one thing I always take and always use is a pad to sit on.
Except when I don't.
Except when I don't.
This.
About the biggest danger is hypothermia. Some means of getting a hot drink down you (or even a water bottle filled with hot water) are key.
Anyone seen (or read) 'Touching the Void'? Climbing disaster in the Andes.
Post the incident the climbers involved discussed why it happened. They concluded that the main factor was that they were short of fuel for their stove. If they'd had enough fuel, they could have sat out the storm and descended in clear weather.
Same applies (but on smaller scale, obviously) to Scotland. If you can stop, make shelter and get yourselves warm, then you can wait out a storm/dark etc and avoid getting into difficulties.
Some interesting reading on hypothermia here MC
http://www.hypothermia.org/hypothermia1.htm
I'd also venture as far as to say a that a water bottle filled with hot water, would be pretty useless in a case of hypothermia as well.
No doubt a hot drink would be (and is) a moral boaster, but as far as survival goes i'd sooner have appropriate extra clothing (like say a down jacket) in my pack for the same weight and size.
I know from experience that messing about with a stove when your hands are freezing cold is not fun at all.
It's a balance though as if you start taking too much stuff with you then the risk of injury or not making a check point or finish a hike on time is raised, therefore the risk of getting caught out increases.
Personally i hate cold weather (hence moving to Greece) so it's very very rare i venture out hiking in those sort of conditions, when i do though i take enough clothing to keep me warm when stationary.
My logic being that i will put on all my clothing layers and crawl inside my emergency bivvy bag, if i start getting cold then i'll start doing press up's, star jumps, sit ups or anything else i am capable of doing physically to get my internal furnace pumping a bit warmer.
It'll no doubt be a miserable, cold and tiring night, but as long as i'm alive enough to be complaining that'll do.
10min that's very impressive, and once picked up they probably get you to hospital quicker than a ambulance can get someone who lives in town
maybe spare batteries for the gps if you havnt already.
and I imagine one of the most comman medical incidents is a sprained ankle so something for that
Interesting link.
I actually meant that being able to make hot drinks can help stave off hypothermia. Once someone has hypothermia they are probably incapable of operating a stove anyway.
Don't really know enough about how our bodies metabolise warmth from food or drink to know if it'd prevent Hypothermia for any length of time.
I know that in summer here i always start to feel hotter after a large meal, it only tends to last for 10 to 20 mins for me though.
Difficult to measure how a hot drink would lift the moral, sometimes that's enough.
I guess in really cold conditions with snow everywhere getting water wouldn't be too much of a problem, it's a bit of a ball ache melting snow as it takes a large amount to get even a small amount of water.
If there is no snow though then getting water will be a deal breaker for me.
You've got think that we wouldn't hunker down in a emergency bivvy bag for no reason, the 2 main reasons that come to mind would be injury (enough to prevent you hiking off the mountain) or the weather came in and visibility was reduced to the point where it would have been dangerous to continue.
In either case water collection is going to be difficult to downright dangerous.
I know that in summer here i always start to feel hotter after a large meal, it only tends to last for 10 to 20 mins for me though.
Difficult to measure how a hot drink would lift the moral, sometimes that's enough.
I guess in really cold conditions with snow everywhere getting water wouldn't be too much of a problem, it's a bit of a ball ache melting snow as it takes a large amount to get even a small amount of water.
If there is no snow though then getting water will be a deal breaker for me.
You've got think that we wouldn't hunker down in a emergency bivvy bag for no reason, the 2 main reasons that come to mind would be injury (enough to prevent you hiking off the mountain) or the weather came in and visibility was reduced to the point where it would have been dangerous to continue.
In either case water collection is going to be difficult to downright dangerous.
Hot food or drink warms from the inside; there's reason why a hot drink or meal is recommended prior to sleeping outdoors - it promotes warmth amongst other attributes.
Obviously it's not the go to thing to do if already suffering; you might find it a tad difficult to do!
Sent from my hidey hole using Tapatalk... sssh!
Obviously it's not the go to thing to do if already suffering; you might find it a tad difficult to do!
Sent from my hidey hole using Tapatalk... sssh!
I tend to scoff at anything that suggests survivalism, especially since it always seems to involve airplane trips to exotic countries. Yet when I think about it, I've been in situations where having a few extras along for comfort's sake was a good idea, even in the tame places I go. But if they're so tame, what could happen?
Lots, it turns out.
The places I go are easily tamer and safer than some city streets, just not so flat and well lighted. There is absolutely no danger from wildlife, not where I go anyway. But the dangers become more apparent this time of the year. You run out of daylight sooner. The weather can change for the worse before you realize it. And I would agree that falling is a serious danger when you're outside, although I've had more serious falls at home (but I'm at home more, too).
Older outdoor books tended to view the basic problem as having to unexpectedly spend the night outside away from camp. You either left camp in a hurry or you got lost while hunting and couldn't get back to camp before dark. Naturally all of this was taking place during winter in hunting season. I've never been lost, not even slightly, but I can easily imagine a bad situation. Someone even described such an incident in an article I read somewhere.
One of my favorite places in Shenandoah National Park, about a hundred miles from home, involves going down a long trail, then climbing another hill from one end or the other. It is a long hike and the way back is really steep. If you attempt the whole circuit hike and you're late getting started, which is possible, you're going to run out of daylight before you get back to the car, especially when the days are short.
Another time that illustrates how the weather can change dramatically in 24 hours happened at exactly the same place. I had spent the night camping on the top of the other hill, the name of which I don't remember (I'll look it up in a minute). The first day was beautiful. The next morning, however, it turned cold. Very hard on your dexterity when it's like that. By the time I got back to the car, it was freezing rain. A ranger even came round before I'd been back at my car for ten minutes and said they were closing the park and I had to leave.
But basic survival/comfort under such conditions is not difficult and you don't need to have a lot of stuff with you. But you will find that some things make a world of difference. So I always take a poncho, a pad and sometimes a groundsheet, too, as well as something to eat and something to make a hot drink with. I even take all of that stuff on short day hikes out my back door, mainly so it will be a habit.
I also suggest leaving home as early as possible. If I go with someone, it seems like I leave about four hours later than I would otherwise. Best laid plans, you know, gang aft something or other, even for mice.
The place I mentioned is Knob Mountain, near Mathew's Arm. The creek at the bottom is Jeremy Run. The hike itself is not difficult except that the trail is very steep in places. I usually don't see a lot of other people out on the trail but once while at the trailhead for that particular place getting ready to have my little adventure, a car came in and a few people got out, followed by another car soon after. Inside of ten minutes several cars came in and a group of about 20 people went down the trail. I followed a few minutes later and did the entire circuit but never saw another person on the trail.
Lots, it turns out.
The places I go are easily tamer and safer than some city streets, just not so flat and well lighted. There is absolutely no danger from wildlife, not where I go anyway. But the dangers become more apparent this time of the year. You run out of daylight sooner. The weather can change for the worse before you realize it. And I would agree that falling is a serious danger when you're outside, although I've had more serious falls at home (but I'm at home more, too).
Older outdoor books tended to view the basic problem as having to unexpectedly spend the night outside away from camp. You either left camp in a hurry or you got lost while hunting and couldn't get back to camp before dark. Naturally all of this was taking place during winter in hunting season. I've never been lost, not even slightly, but I can easily imagine a bad situation. Someone even described such an incident in an article I read somewhere.
One of my favorite places in Shenandoah National Park, about a hundred miles from home, involves going down a long trail, then climbing another hill from one end or the other. It is a long hike and the way back is really steep. If you attempt the whole circuit hike and you're late getting started, which is possible, you're going to run out of daylight before you get back to the car, especially when the days are short.
Another time that illustrates how the weather can change dramatically in 24 hours happened at exactly the same place. I had spent the night camping on the top of the other hill, the name of which I don't remember (I'll look it up in a minute). The first day was beautiful. The next morning, however, it turned cold. Very hard on your dexterity when it's like that. By the time I got back to the car, it was freezing rain. A ranger even came round before I'd been back at my car for ten minutes and said they were closing the park and I had to leave.
But basic survival/comfort under such conditions is not difficult and you don't need to have a lot of stuff with you. But you will find that some things make a world of difference. So I always take a poncho, a pad and sometimes a groundsheet, too, as well as something to eat and something to make a hot drink with. I even take all of that stuff on short day hikes out my back door, mainly so it will be a habit.
I also suggest leaving home as early as possible. If I go with someone, it seems like I leave about four hours later than I would otherwise. Best laid plans, you know, gang aft something or other, even for mice.
The place I mentioned is Knob Mountain, near Mathew's Arm. The creek at the bottom is Jeremy Run. The hike itself is not difficult except that the trail is very steep in places. I usually don't see a lot of other people out on the trail but once while at the trailhead for that particular place getting ready to have my little adventure, a car came in and a few people got out, followed by another car soon after. Inside of ten minutes several cars came in and a group of about 20 people went down the trail. I followed a few minutes later and did the entire circuit but never saw another person on the trail.
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A very interesting read on what people regard as survival kit. As someone says- what you carry should vary from place to place.
I don't know whether you would class what we would carry on a winter hunting trip as 'survival' kit in the way you see it, but if we were going away from home to a distant hunting ledge we'd not used in the last year or so , for a few weeks trip and it was going to be a week or more to travel there, we'd normally carry :-
a) extra ammunition,
b) spare cold weather gloves/spare hat/extra jacket
c) Spare lighters. Don't like matches - too easy to get wet or damp
d) If using Skidoo then we'd take spare plugs, fuel and some 'easy start'.
e) An axe & saw or two (for shelter building/sledge repairs, chopping frozen meat., (cutting firewood if the chainsaw busts)
f) Big tarp.
g) If using dog teams/sledges then we'd take spare traces/harnesses and spare food incase we can't catch anything.
h) We might take a radio if one of us had one, but they don't work reliably well here, even satellite phones!!!
I can't recall a hunter being lost in the sense he don';t know where he/she is or being unable to get back to camp often. We'd always be able to build shelter and if we couldn't find food - which does happen, we'd just go hungry or return home.
We'd normally only carry on our bodies a big hunting/skinning knife/rifle and perhaps axe if we thought we might need it.
Maybe you could think of some problem where we might need to think of better safety equipment?
I don't know whether you would class what we would carry on a winter hunting trip as 'survival' kit in the way you see it, but if we were going away from home to a distant hunting ledge we'd not used in the last year or so , for a few weeks trip and it was going to be a week or more to travel there, we'd normally carry :-
a) extra ammunition,
b) spare cold weather gloves/spare hat/extra jacket
c) Spare lighters. Don't like matches - too easy to get wet or damp
d) If using Skidoo then we'd take spare plugs, fuel and some 'easy start'.
e) An axe & saw or two (for shelter building/sledge repairs, chopping frozen meat., (cutting firewood if the chainsaw busts)
f) Big tarp.
g) If using dog teams/sledges then we'd take spare traces/harnesses and spare food incase we can't catch anything.
h) We might take a radio if one of us had one, but they don't work reliably well here, even satellite phones!!!
I can't recall a hunter being lost in the sense he don';t know where he/she is or being unable to get back to camp often. We'd always be able to build shelter and if we couldn't find food - which does happen, we'd just go hungry or return home.
We'd normally only carry on our bodies a big hunting/skinning knife/rifle and perhaps axe if we thought we might need it.
Maybe you could think of some problem where we might need to think of better safety equipment?
Do you have any evidence in the way of scientific studies to back up that claim?
It's just in my experience any warming effect is extremely small and doesn't last long.
As i said in my last post i really don't know enough on how our bodies metabolise warmth from food or drink to have an opinion, but i do know from experience that if you are cold and wet a warm drink doesn't really have much of a impact apart from moral.
My concern is, that people are advising others to take enough supplies to make a warm drink/food without any evidence that it actually does stave off hypothermia at all.
For me i still stand by my opinion that it's better to have enough clothing layers with you that if you curl up in a emergency bivvy bag you'll survive the night.
BT,
I'm with you, i hear or read anything "survival" and cringe.
It's not really anything to do with knives with saws on the spines and snare kits though, most of those things are just pure fantasy items for folks with vivid imaginations on UK outings.
I have had weather bad enough that it wasn't sensible to continue, luckily i was camping anyways so just set up camp early.
Had several injuries while outdoors, most from MTBing, have also helped injured people we have come across and had mates with pretty bad injuries.
So for me "survival" is just having enough with me to survive a unexpected night out.
I know that in most areas i go there is a good chance someone will be within ear shot of my whistle by the next day, i also leave a itinerary with my Mrs and a outdoors type mate, so they'll have a rough idea where to search if i don't return.
1 unexpected night out is pretty much worst case scenario in the areas i tend to hike on my own.
So i carry what i need to survive that.
In summer that'll mean carrying extra water (dehydration in the biggest concern in summer here in Greece), in winter that'll be my down jacket thrown in my rucksack.
I usually have a basic FAK and a emergency bivvy bag with me the year round, likewise a whistle and a torch.
I'm with you, i hear or read anything "survival" and cringe.
It's not really anything to do with knives with saws on the spines and snare kits though, most of those things are just pure fantasy items for folks with vivid imaginations on UK outings.
I have had weather bad enough that it wasn't sensible to continue, luckily i was camping anyways so just set up camp early.
Had several injuries while outdoors, most from MTBing, have also helped injured people we have come across and had mates with pretty bad injuries.
So for me "survival" is just having enough with me to survive a unexpected night out.
I know that in most areas i go there is a good chance someone will be within ear shot of my whistle by the next day, i also leave a itinerary with my Mrs and a outdoors type mate, so they'll have a rough idea where to search if i don't return.
1 unexpected night out is pretty much worst case scenario in the areas i tend to hike on my own.
So i carry what i need to survive that.
In summer that'll mean carrying extra water (dehydration in the biggest concern in summer here in Greece), in winter that'll be my down jacket thrown in my rucksack.
I usually have a basic FAK and a emergency bivvy bag with me the year round, likewise a whistle and a torch.
Moral - keeping your spirits up - staying positive, determined & focussed. Decisive factors in any 'situation'.
If someone is immobilised due to injury, they aren't going to be able to exercise to generate heat. Shelter, warm clothes and a source of heat and liquid is important.
Melting snow for water really needs fuel. That's what went wrong for the guys in 'Touching the Void'. Not enough fuel = running out of water.
Administering warm drinks is recommended treatment for mild hypothermia.
Melting snow for water really needs fuel. That's what went wrong for the guys in 'Touching the Void'. Not enough fuel = running out of water.
Administering warm drinks is recommended treatment for mild hypothermia.
I agree in most situations, my point is that gram for gram a warmer layer of clothing would be better.
Moral is great but it's pretty useless against something like Hypothermia.
By the same token, how are you going to supply yourself with enough water to keep you going throughout the night if you are immobilised?
It's also unrealistic to expect day hikers to carry enough fuel with them for a full night of melting snow or boiling water.
A wood burner isn't the answer either because as above if you are immobilised how are you going to get around enough to find the perfect sized sticks that fit in most wood burning stoves.
Speaking from experience, it's extremely difficult to get a fire going with cold hands in a snow filled environment.
I can see that i might be coming off as a bit pedantic here, but i honestly believe it's details like this that really matter.
1/ Is there any hard evidence in the form of a scientific study that proves beyond a doubt a warm drink staves off Hypothermia?
2/ If so what is the recommended intake of warm food or fluids?
Once we have evidence of #1 and the answer to #2 we can then look at how much fuel would be needed to boil or even heat water, or melt snow.
We can also see how much water we should recommend people carry in times/areas where Hypothermia is a concern, as i say collecting water is not really a possibility in the 2 most common scenarios i can imagine (immobilised from injury, having to sit out bad weather).
Again i'm sorry if i'm coming across as pedantic here, but we are advising people on what kit they should carry if a emergency situation comes up, so i'm of the belief that we really need to have our ducks in a row.
I wouldn't eat warm food unless it required minimal digestion - the blood flow burdne is large and if your cold enough your body has used vasoconstriction to preserve your organs you don't want what little blood flow you have keeping you warm forced into your stomach
Good point.
Doesn't the warmth from the food in your stomach have any effect of warming your blood though?
I always carry a possible style bag with a modicum of kit, even for a stroll.
Shelter (reusable rain poncho)
Spare compass
Fire kit (matches in a water proof case, ferro rod, lighter, tinder)
Metal cup (presently a large SS Sierra type) with 2 cooking skewers 16" log
Water flask/canteen, purifying pills
Sturdy folding kife
A bit of food (love sardines) manual can opener P51
now for a preference: An reusable sportman blanket (with some critters roaming our bush, do not want to offer myself as a baked potato, need to exit fast)
But if I panic, loose focus, falsify my level of bushcraft, all the kit all the world is useless.
I also carry a personal kit on my body, compass, sheath knife, matches, snare wire, hard candy
Shelter (reusable rain poncho)
Spare compass
Fire kit (matches in a water proof case, ferro rod, lighter, tinder)
Metal cup (presently a large SS Sierra type) with 2 cooking skewers 16" log
Water flask/canteen, purifying pills
Sturdy folding kife
A bit of food (love sardines) manual can opener P51
now for a preference: An reusable sportman blanket (with some critters roaming our bush, do not want to offer myself as a baked potato, need to exit fast)
But if I panic, loose focus, falsify my level of bushcraft, all the kit all the world is useless.
I also carry a personal kit on my body, compass, sheath knife, matches, snare wire, hard candy
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Reminds me of a funny story that's kit related.
A few of us got together to plan a trip, as we were all blokes once the route and date were sorted the conversation went onto kit.
1 of my mates is a scout, ex special forces and fancies himself as a bit of a survival type guy.
He was outraged that i wasn't taking a knife with me and a fire starter.
So me being me i asked why i'd need one, he then started going on about emergencies and NEEDING to start a fire.
Explained to him that i'd been to the area we were going a few times before and as we were above the tree line unless he can set fire to rocks there really was nothing to burn.
So when we got there he ended up using our gas burners to cook with as there was absolutely nothing to burn except a few tufts of grass, so again me being me i ribbed him about it the rest of the trip as he had a small axe, 3 knives, and 2 different devices for starting the fire, not one was used the entire trip.
he ended up getting the hump and said that i'd rigged the route so as there would be nothing to burn.
So the next trip we went through a large wooded area, he took the same axe, knives and fire starters, but because it had been raining for a few weeks before our trip and every single second from leaving the car he could not get a fore going, not even enough to boil water on his wood burning stove.
Fair dues to the guy, he went at it for hours on end each night, he tried saving some tinder so it was that wet and humid it just wouldn't dry out enough.
So even in a heavily wooded area his stove, axe, knives and fire starters were 100% dead weight.
Bare in mind we had shelter, were well fed, warm and relaxed as well.
I know we have some talented folks on here when it comes to starting a fire, but i think for most of us, even on a good day it'd be a struggle to get a fire started on a wet day, throw in stress, cold, wet, fear and panic and i'd say only 1 in 4 of us could get one going.
The other thing is location.
You could have a chainsaw and flame thrower but what are you going to burn here?
And these were taken in the Lake District one of the most popular areas in the UK for outdoors enthusiasts.
Even if you were mobile enough or the weather was good enough to drop down from the tops (surely it'd be good enough to hike out as well then) there is still nothing to burn
I can understand the logic behind having a fire as a back up in a emergency, it's just in my experience it's a very risky strategy to have as a fall back, even if you have the skill, experience, knowledge, patience and tools to start a fire in what would be cold and wet weather (if it was dry and warm why would you need a fire?) then throw in stress, or even worse an injury and how are you going to collect the vast amount of fuel needed to fuel a fire for a night?
That's IF there is anything to burn in the area you are stranded in.
I tend to prefer to have everything with me, that way i don't HAVE to rely on searching or luck to survive a unexpected night out, be that fuel for a fire or a water source.
So for me i just throw a down jacket in my rucksack in winter, extra water in summer in adition to my FAK, whistle, torch etc.
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