Why are bushcraft knives, and survival knives so different?

[HillBill]

I'm currently in the process of designing a couple of "Survival knives". In my research, one thing that strikes me is the difference between what is considered a survival knife and what is considered a bushcraft knife.

Now, why would they be so different? They both need to fulfil the role of providing you with your needs in a "away from civilisation" setting.... to me a Bushcraft knife is optimised for all that it needs to do, in such a setting. They are optimised for working with wood, the material of choice for construction in the wilderness..... they are easy to sharpen...... they are plenty strong enough....... more than capable of butchering animals if needs be....

So why so different to a survival knife? Bushys are designed for living in the wilderness with.... "living in" (bushcraft) is more long term than "passing through" ( survival).....

Is it only the mentality of the practitioners? I can't see it being anything else..unless the thought is a TEOTWAWKI scenario.

Thoughts guys?

 

[JonathanD]

A survival knife needs to have a tough edge, rust resistant steel and be able to cover a load of chores. Bushcraft knives primarily have an edge for woodwork, which inherently makes that edge unsuitable for things you'd want a survival knife to do. Handle material will differ too. Bushy knives tent to have natural materials which need care. Whilst survival knives need a stronger and tougher material.

 

[andyxedos]

Not that I have much experience but the survival stuff I have seen have generally thicker blades, more robust handles (micarta seems less prone to damage/less slippery?) But in reality does it make a difference??? Im not volunteering to find out for real!

 

[cranmere]

To a great extent, fashion. You see the same thing in diving, scuba people wear one style of wetsuit, free divers wear another. Both are perfectly practical for either but it is definitely Not Done to wear the "wrong" style.

 

[HillBill]

Why? A survival knife... by its true definition, will be used less than a bushcraft knife... by its own definition.... What does a survival knife need to cut, that a bushy couldn't or doesn't? And surely that can be remedied by a steeper grind? Why does a survival knife need to be more rust resistant than a bushy? and even it it does get a bit of rust on it.... so what? Its not gonna make the knife fail is it?

A survival knife needs to have a tough edge, rust resistant steel and be able to cover a load of chores. Bushcraft knives primarily have an edge for woodwork, which inherently makes that edge unsuitable for things you'd want a survival knife to do. Handle material will differ too. Bushy knives tent to have natural materials which need care. Whilst survival knives need a stronger and tougher material.

 

[Goatboy]

I always thought that "survival knives" fell into the Rambo style of things and were meant more for military applications where say a downed pilot would need to survive behind enemy lines with very limited kit. (A pilot often just having the contents of a vest and small package of things in/under his seat. He may need to get through fences and survive with what he's got on his person hence things like wire cutters being included in some sheaths. These knives as also meant to be friable in that as long as it gets you out of that situation then if it's kaput you'll be issued another before going back in the field. So they don't have to be pretty.
Bushcraft knives in my head may have to do a lot of similar tasks but the wearer is possibly more likely to be carrying other gear and or have the knowledge to improvise due to practice. Tend to be more aesthetically driven and some prepared to pay a large amount for a pretty and useful knife. So it may not have the hollow handle and sheath dripping in kit (prepppers aside).
Though fashions change and back in the 80's there was little discernible difference between the two as the ethos of the movement at the time had a more survivalist/military edge. Along came Ray, changed the name from survivalist (with all the negative connotations) to Fluffy Bushcraft and hey presto we weren't stared at in fear by work colleagues when they asked what we did with our weekends.

 

[HillBill]

Thats kind of my point... why does it need a more robust handle..... do you hold it more roughly? In a survival situation, do your hands damage wood?

Not that I have much experience but the survival stuff I have seen have generally thicker blades, more robust handles (micarta seems less prone to damage/less slippery?) But in reality does it make a difference??? Im not volunteering to find out for real!

 

[JonathanD]

To a great extent, fashion. You see the same thing in diving, scuba people wear one style of wetsuit, free divers wear another. Both are perfectly practical for either but it is definitely Not Done to wear the "wrong" style.

I wouldn't agree with that. Bushcraft knives with scandi grinds aren't that good for many things you'd expect a multi task utility knife to do. The edge is very easy to chip when dismembering a carcass or cutting items that are synthetic. You wouldn't use a bushcraft knife in a kitchen. It's very task specific.

 

[JonathanD]

Thats kind of my point... why does it need a more robust handle..... do you hold it more roughly? In a survival situation, do your hands damage wood?

You might beat on it with a stone or even find yourself in a very hot humid environment where the wood on a bushcraft knife would warp and cause blisters. You never see RM take his knife into the rainforest. He takes a stainless steel Mora.

 

[HillBill]

So its all in the mentality of the practioner then?

 

[Goatboy]

Thats kind of my point... why does it need a more robust handle..... do you hold it more roughly? In a survival situation, do your hands damage wood?

I think it's more the slipperiness so that the survivor doesn't hurt himself anymore by handling it badly and they may be all slippy from a sentries blood

 

[Goatboy]

You might beat on it with a stone or even find yourself in a very hot humid environment where the wood on a bushcraft knife would warp and cause blisters. You never see RM take his knife into the rainforest. He takes a stainless steel Mora.

Actually just been watching some of his jungle stuff and he does that a woodlore knife into the jungle... sorry.

 

[HillBill]

The material does not dictate how grippy something is..... how its sanded/blasted does that.... a 1000g finish on wood, is just as grippy/slippy as a 1000g finish on G10 or micarta.

I think it's more the slipperiness so that the survivor doesn't hurt himself anymore by handling it badly and they may be all slippy from a sentries blood

 

[Haggis]

Knives are all too often jewelry, and many purchasers want the knife that aids in creating the image the purchaser sees of his or her self. Bushcraft, hunter, fisherman, tactical, trapper, or gentleman; all are images we have of ourselves, and if we carry a knife, we want one that represents us properly.

Many crafts use specific sorts of blade shapes on their knives, and with very specifically designed handles or grips. These sorts of knives developed over long periods of years to fill a trade or craft need. Bushcraft-ers and survivalists are not any specific breed of folk or trade, and as such, they are influenced by fashion, whether they willingly admit it or not.

I am very much an old school traditionalist, and I much prefer blade shapes and handles that were common 100 years or more ago. When I see what folk call "bushcraft" knives, or "survival" knives they look more like kitchen cutlery or toys, (and in that order), to me than something I could actually use in the bush, or for "survival" what ever that means.

 

[JonathanD]

Why? A survival knife... by its true definition, will be used less than a bushcraft knife... by its own definition.... What does a survival knife need to cut, that a bushy couldn't or doesn't? And surely that can be remedied by a steeper grind? Why does a survival knife need to be more rust resistant than a bushy? and even it it does get a bit of rust on it.... so what? Its not gonna make the knife fail is it?

I wouldn't have thought so. Survival knives have been used to cut people from cars or even downed aircraft, and have had to punch through metal sheet, cut wire cables etc. Survival needs don't just crop up in the woods and mountains, they happen on the motorway, in buildings and other urban environments where they would need to cut through many other things other than wood. If you were at sea aboard a survival raft or upended yacht for any amount of time, you'd want the steel to be stainless and corrosion resistant.

 

[Goatboy]

The material does not dictate how grippy something is..... how its sanded/blasted does that.... a 1000g finish on wood, is just as grippy/slippy as a 1000g finish on G10 or micarta.

Yup but back when SWAT magazine used to do all their tests the wood ones invariable struck out on the soap handle test. Maybe the handles weren't as good then, but there's also the perception that the non wooden ones are more "tacticool"!

 

[Johnnyboy1971]

If you end up in a survival situation are you going to be carrying a survival knife? Or if your out practising bushcraft and end up in a survival situation you would use what you had, and what's betting that was your bushy knife.

Are you going to carry a survival knife in the off chance you end up in said survival situation?
What dictates a survival situation.

 

[JonathanD]

Actually just been watching some of his jungle stuff and he does that a woodlore knife into the jungle... sorry.

What episode is that. I will put £50 on the line right now and say he never has I got that info straight from the horses mouth. He takes it into dry savannah and arid coastal environments, but he will never take his woodlore to a tropical rainforest.

 

[JonathanD]

If you end up in a survival situation are you going to be carrying a survival knife? Or if your out practising bushcraft and end up in a survival situation you would use what you had, and what's betting that was your bushy knife.

Are you going to carry a survival knife in the off chance you end up in said survival situation?
What dictates a survival situation.

Chances are you'll never have a knife. But as Mark is designing a survival knife then it needs to meet more requirements than a bushy, otherwise he'll just have designed another bushcraft knife

 

[HillBill]

Ok, does that apply to the UK? I'm struggling to see a realistic scenario, where you would have a survival knife on you, and be able to cut someone out of a car or aircraft... without being arrested for having said knife.... Military guys... yeah, sure... its to be expected... but that could only apply to them... or in a country that allows carry of a knife like that on a regular basis.

I wouldn't have thought so. Survival knives have been used to cut people from cars or even downed aircraft, and have had to punch through metal sheet, cut wire cables etc. Survival needs don't just crop up in the woods and mountains, they happen on the motorway, in buildings and other urban environments where they would need to cut through many other things other than wood. If you were at sea aboard a survival raft or upended yacht for any amount of time, you'd want the steel to be stainless and corrosion resistant.