Fumes from lanterns ?

[British Red]

I look at it another way...people used oil lamps indoors for years and didn't regularly die of CO poisoning.

Here is another analogy to go with bigroomboy's. A human being breathes 7-8 litres of air a minute. If you had two more people in a room with you, thats the equivalent of a coleman lamp on medium in terms of O2 use. If the neighbours come round for tea and cakes do you need to open a window for fear of suffocation? Well they are using 16L of air compared to the 14L of a tilley lamp.

Or if the cooker is gas and you have four burners going and the oven......that has to be more oxygen consumed than a Tilley lamp surely?

Lets not get too paranoid about this stuff.

That said, I had to put a vent in for Hetas reasons. Given my house has no foundations - we vented into the floor (sigh). I have always thought hermetically sealing up houses is a bloody silly idea. Thankfully our place is anything BUT hermetically sealed - the wind rattles the windows there are so many gaps I just put another big log on the stove. I'm not dead ye................

 

[santaman2000]

I look at it another way...people used oil lamps indoors for years and didn't regularly die of CO poisoning.

Here is another analogy to go with bigroomboy's. A human being breathes 7-8 litres of air a minute. If you had two more people in a room with you, thats the equivalent of a coleman lamp on medium in terms of O2 use. If the neighbours come round for tea and cakes do you need to open a window for fear of suffocation? Well they are using 16L of air compared to the 14L of a tilley lamp.....

We may breathe at that rate Red but in doing so we don't convert the oxygen to CO2 at anywhere near the same rate as combustion (and we NEVER convert it to CO) If we did, rescue breathing would be more harmful than good.

 

[ebt.]

You can tolerate up to about 0.5% Co2 without major issue. CO you can only tolerate about 0.02% without ill effect.

human respiration produces Co2: Inspire 7-8L with an oxygen level of ~20%, consume about 25% of that. Normal metabolism converts to CO2 at about 90% of the O2 intake. 8x0.2x025x0.9=0.36L Co2/min.

The worry with any combustion source is the CO levels...... Those sticky dot CO sensors are ok for quick checks if you're worried.

ps. yes, Im a bit of a respiration geek

 

[cbr6fs]

I look at it another way...people used oil lamps indoors for years and didn't regularly die of CO poisoning.

Problem was though identifying the true cause of death.
Even today with modern science and technology it's still tough to narrow it down to CO poisoning simply because many do not bother to test for it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13084762

Here is another analogy to go with bigroomboy's. A human being breathes 7-8 litres of air a minute. If you had two more people in a room with you, thats the equivalent of a coleman lamp on medium in terms of O2 use. If the neighbours come round for tea and cakes do you need to open a window for fear of suffocation? Well they are using 16L of air compared to the 14L of a tilley lamp.

We exhale Carbon Dioxide (CO2) though BR.
(just nipped onto Wikipedia and found this)

The air we inhale is roughly composed of (by volume):

78% nitrogen
21% oxygen
0.96% argon
0.04% carbon dioxide, helium, water, and other gases

The permanent gases in gas we exhale are roughly 4% to 5% more carbon dioxide and 4% to 5% less oxygen than was inhaled. This expired air typically composed of:

78% nitrogen
13.6% - 16% Oxygen
4% - 5.3% Carbon dioxide
1% Argon and other gases

Full text here

Carbon Dioxide (CO2) although still harmful in high quantities, is no where near as toxic as Carbon Monoxide.
We even have CO2 fire extinguishers.

CO2 is an asphyxiant gas and not classified as toxic or harmful in accordance with Globally Harmonized System of Classification and Labelling of Chemicals standards of United Nations Economic Commission for Europe by using the OECD Guidelines for the Testing of Chemicals. In higher concentrations 1% (10,000 ppm) will make some people feel drowsy.[77] Concentrations of 7% to 10% may cause suffocation, manifesting as dizziness, headache, visual and hearing dysfunction, and unconsciousness within a few minutes to an hour.[79]

Again full text here

We also deplete very little Oxygen with each breath, unlike fire which depletes Oxygen very efficiently.

If you had several people in a very small poorly ventilated room, with a blazing fire under a blocked chimney THEN things would get very dangerous very quickly and Carbon monoxide (CO) will be produced due to the lack of Carbon Dioxide (CO2).

Or if the cooker is gas and you have four burners going and the oven......that has to be more oxygen consumed than a Tilley lamp surely?

Yep and there are several deaths each and every year in the UK from gas stoves being left on in a poorly ventilated environment.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/south_yorkshire/8525461.stm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...deadly-gas-kills-minutes-turns-brain-red.html
http://www.gas-safety-trust.org.uk/carbon-monoxide-fatalities-linked-gas-cookers-increase-ten-fold

A good indication of how dangerous CO is and how quickly it can cause problems is to look at the many deaths each year from campers using BBQ's or heaters in tents.

http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/news/gas_safe_register_news/advice_to_british_campers.aspx

I think most folks would describe most tents as "well ventilated" in comparison to say a kitchen, workshop etc.
These are mainly caused my BBQ's as well which aren't exactly raging flames, even a smouldering coal depletes Oxygen, CO2 and then gives out CO after the CO2 levels have dropped.

Lets not get too paranoid about this stuff.

That said, I had to put a vent in for Hetas reasons. Given my house has no foundations - we vented into the floor (sigh). I have always thought hermetically sealing up houses is a bloody silly idea. Thankfully our place is anything BUT hermetically sealed - the wind rattles the windows there are so many gaps I just put another big log on the stove. I'm not dead ye................

As grown bottom adults we all make our own risk assessments depending on our experiences, needs and knowledge, as a motorbike rider i'm certainly in no position to "advise" anyone on risk assessments.

BUT CO poisoning is a very real killer and seems to be on a dramatic rise lately.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...oisoning-deaths-treble-in-a-year-2368958.html

It doesn't matter if you live in a new state of the art insulated house or a drafty old castle, if there is not a flue to expel the gases that are given off then there is a very real danger, that's not paranoia but basic physics.
If the CO has no outlet and there is not enough air flow to replenish the Oxygen that the fire is depleting then there is a very real risk.

What makes it even more dangerous though is that CO poisoning creeps up on you and you'll not know anything about it, (it's not dubbed the "silent killer" for nothing).

Personally i have fitted both a smoke alarm and CO alarm in every room in the house, the CO alarm NEEDS to be wall mounted though NOT ceiling mounted.
Although CO is slightly lighter than air it will often struggle to get to ceiling height before it's too late.

I fit mine at head height, so in the living room they are fitted at the lowest point my head is when lounging on the settee.


Sorry for going on (again) and sorry for all the wikipedia links, but i honestly think it's worth taking a few mins to write down and link to real data and experiences.



Cheers
Mark

 

[santaman2000]

....Or if the cooker is gas and you have four burners going and the oven......that has to be more oxygen consumed than a Tilley lamp surely?....

Yeah probably. IF it's a gas cooker, and I assume that's what we're talking about. But then if it is, then building codes require a flue over the cooker for just that reason. As they do over a gas furnace, and a gas water heater, etc. I also have to have flues over each of the toilets to expel methane.

 

[British Red]

I understand all the points - and they are well made. However I do still maintain that a gas cooker (for example) would produce a great deal of CO and CO related deaths if houses were as poorly ventialted as people fear - they do happen - but incredibly rarely. The OP is in a garage, not a tupperware box and has a CO monitor fitted. Sufficient advice is (for me) if that door is airtight, crack a window or fit an airbrick. An airbrick is sufficient for a full on wood burning stove (not woodburner - I'm talking coal fired Aga here).

Of course we need to be aware of CO and inherent dangers, but in a house that isn't "stuffy" a pressure lamp should be burning to produce CO2. I've used them for years - and wood fires, and cooked on solid fuel, heck we even use candles! In a nice old draughty cottage - its okay, honest!

 

[santaman2000]

I understand all the points - and they are well made. However I do still maintain that a gas cooker (for example) would produce a great deal of CO and CO related deaths if houses were as poorly ventialted as people fear - they do happen - but incredibly rarely. The OP is in a garage, not a tupperware box and has a CO monitor fitted. Sufficient advice is (for me) if that door is airtight, crack a window or fit an airbrick....

Fair enough. My first post referenced the instructions form Coleman requiring 1 square foot of ventilation. That can be a achieved by cracking a window just a few inches (as most windows are around 32-36 inches wide)

And as stated, a gas cooker has it's own flue.

 

[British Red]

And as stated, a gas cooker has it's own flue.

Mine doesn't - but I suspect our building regs are different.

 

[santaman2000]

Mine doesn't - but I suspect our building regs are different.

Very possibly Red. Or equally possibly, your house is older and "grandfathered" to be exempt. The house I grew up in (and all the other homes of that era) didn't have separate flues for the gas stoves either. But back then they were drafty as you stated.

 

[bigroomboy]

My gas stove doesnt have a flue but there is a difference, The shorter the hydrocarbon chain the better the combustion. When a long hydrocarbon combusts there is a mad fight by all the different fragments to react with oxygen in the split second that molecule reacts. As some parts of the molecule find an oxygen molecule the local concentration of oxygen molecule falls until some parts are not able to find enough oxygen so settle for less and form CO. Now CO wants to become CO2 but there is a barrier to this reaction so it takes time and depends on heat and the concentration of oxygen, because it has moved away from the heat source this is more difficult and can take a long time. As the oxygen content in the room drops go the combustion efficiency goes down and more CO is produced along with soot and other products of poor combustion.

Short chains burn much cleaner, in fact I know my car running on LPG produces 0% CO as I see it at each MOT test, so the risk from gas is much lower than heavier weight fuels. The problem is its very hard to know what is the right level of ventilation, but what we do know is that people have been using tilley lamps and other fuel lamps indoors for a very long time without a problem unless they are no longer able to tell us? but the problem may occur when this happens in a modern less draughty house. Only the user can decide what is the right course of action but for the price of a CO alarm it may be worth the backup.

Now does anybody know what sort of levels in ppm are considered risky and fatal? I have a CO monitor and like to look at the max read out sometimes but it doesnt mean much if I don't know what the thresholds are.

 

[cbr6fs]

As i say we all make our own risk assessments depending on our experience, knowledge and balancing it against what needs to be done.

I do think that more should be done in the media with regards to educating people to the risks of CO poisoning, that way at least they can make a informed decision rather than guessing.

We have have several great posts here and some great info, so from my viewpoint anyone that's read this thread has that knowledge now to make their own decisions.


Only thing i would add is, for the sake of a tenner buy a CO alarm, or even better still 2, so you can mount them at different levels.

 

[santaman2000]

As i say we all make our own risk assessments depending on our experience, knowledge and balancing it against what needs to be done.

I do think that more should be done in the media with regards to educating people to the risks of CO poisoning, that way at least they can make a informed decision rather than guessing......

I suppose that's one of the "benefits?" of living in a hurricane zone. They do put it on the media (A LOT!) every time one threatens. That said, there's always an idiot somewhere who either didn't get the memo or ignored it. Casualties from axphyxiation or CO poisoning every time. Albeit more often (but not always) from a larger source than a Coleman type lamp; usually somebody running a gasoline generator in the garage.

 

[cbr6fs]

I suppose that's one of the "benefits?" of living in a hurricane zone. They do put it on the media (A LOT!) every time one threatens. That said, there's always an idiot somewhere who either didn't get the memo or ignored it. Casualties from axphyxiation or CO poisoning every time. Albeit more often (but not always) from a larger source than a Coleman type lamp; usually somebody running a gasoline generator in the garage.

Human nature i'm afraid mate.

I ride a motorbike knowing full well the dangers and having lost my left arm to paralysis from the activity.
My Mrs knows full well the dangers of smoking, but still smokes 30 a day.
My Mum knows full well being overweight will effect her health, she's still overweight though.

We all do stupid things sometimes and push the boundaries of safety.
If i was some young suntanned youth with wavy hair and had a habit of jumping out of perfectly good working planes i'd probably say something like "it's only when we're close to death we truly appreciate life".

As a middle aged east midlander though i'd just say we all do stupid things some times.

 

[santaman2000]

....We all do stupid things sometimes and push the boundaries of safety.
If i was some young suntanned youth with wavy hair and had a habit of jumping out of perfectly good working planes i'd probably say something like "it's only when we're close to death we truly appreciate life".....

I've been an aircraft maintenence technician and a pilot as well (maintenence tech. was the primary of the 3) and I can safely say, "there's no such thing as a perfectly good airplane." Damned close, but not "perfectly" good. An old fashioned military T-10 parachate (the type that was used as THE primary students chute back when I did it) on the other hand is all but fool proof. You can wad it up into a pillow case and just throw it into the wind and it will still very likely deploy correctly. The planes the skydivers (sky gods) use on the other hand, well, lets just say the FAA should't look at them too closely.

 

[rik_uk3]

Use some common sense with your lanterns, make sure you have ventilation. I just spent four days camping and used a twin mantle Coleman powerhouse in my tent, made sure it was ventilated and am sitting here typing this (Robens Double Dreamer tent).