MagiKelly said:
Oh my god, I've almost died laughing!!!!! I don't think they realise that there is any land outside of London, do they?
You are not alone....
- Thread starter Motorbike Man
- Start date
-
Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.
Oh my god, I've almost died laughing!!!!! I don't think they realise that there is any land outside of London, do they?
MagiKelly said:
But in Scotland there's a lot more open space for a lot less people. As Robin Douglas-Home said: "Scotland, thank God, is not for everyone".
MagiKelly
Making memories since '67
I agree, John, but there are two important differences between Scotland and England in this area.
Firstly, we have one fifth of the population density.
Secondly, we have a longstanding tradition of responsible access to forest and mountain. The recent Land Reform Act just put this into law as a legal right. Sweden has a similar right to walk and camp responsibly.
In England there is a widespread belief that land ownership gives you the right to exclude others from your property. Things are changing though, and I think the Scottish/Swedish position is the one to aim for.
Firstly, we have one fifth of the population density.
Secondly, we have a longstanding tradition of responsible access to forest and mountain. The recent Land Reform Act just put this into law as a legal right. Sweden has a similar right to walk and camp responsibly.
In England there is a widespread belief that land ownership gives you the right to exclude others from your property. Things are changing though, and I think the Scottish/Swedish position is the one to aim for.
This thread and the National Parks thread seem very similar so I am reiterating, with a couple of modifications, what I said there.
Sorry it's a long post but I think the content is valid.
The permit idea is a good one. But it is definitely not simple one. In fact this whole issue is very complicated.
The Forestry Commission and it's Agencies are Public Bodies - accountable to Ministers (DEFRA).As with any public body there needs to be accountability.
The problem with a permit system is that someone needs to run it, regulate it and inspect it.
Who would administer the registration system for Bushcrafters ?
Would the Forestry Commission act as Regulator ?
What sort of regulatory framework would be required to enable bushcraft activities to take place?
Would the already hard pressed rangers and officials of the Forestry Commission have to take on these duties on top of their existing responsibilities and if so, where would the financial resources come from ?
And finally the do existing bylaws/legislation need to be changed.
These are all tricky issues but I think there is a legitimate agenda for debate here.
You just need to make sure you do it in the right way. Public Bodies have never been more approachable or been more prepared to engage with the wider communities to discuss the process of policy making and regulation.
Has anyone taken the time to read through the Forestry Commission's published literature and public commitments ?
On their website and in their publication 'Our work today' the Commission says that,
"We try to ensure that, when our activities may have an impact on a community or a person, we involve them as soon as possible explaining, listening and taking account of their views.
This consultation process covers all aspects of our business, from paying out grants, to felling trees, timber haulage plans and plans for new walks or community woodlands.
We often go further. Many communities become so involved that they begin to take management decisions about the future of woods around them. Some enter into partnerships with us and some go as far as buying a forest and manage it with our help to bring social and economic benefits to their area."
This sounds like a willingness to listen and engage to me.
I'm sure the 'Government' and all its agencies are well aware of organisations such as the Ramblers Association, the Caravan Association and other outdoorsy type groups. But I suspect that Bushcraft is a bit of an amorphous concept to them.
There is no doubt that Bushcraft is growing in popularity thanks to the increased profile on TV and the wider media Ray Mears and others (Bruce Parry, Benedict Allen, Nick Middleton etc)
BushcraftUK seems to be a thoroughly credible and responsible organisation which could do much to champion the cause of Bushcraft in the right circles. If we can engage positively with the relevant organisations and explain how bushcrafters differ from campers with caravans, ramblers and travelers, then I'm sure that these organisations would begin to respond to the needs of our community. One of the firsts steps is to ensure that the Forestry Commission, its Agencies and Ministers understand the needs of bushcrafters/Campers/Backwoodsmen or whatever we think of ourselves as.
If you are contemplating writing to your MP to raise awareness of the Bushcraft community, you might ask him or her, to write to Jim Knight MP Parliamentary Undersecretary has responsibility for Forestry, Access, rights of way and Common Land at DEFRA.
General whinging, protesting and illegal camping is not the right way to go about it. Well, not and get positive results anyway.
Maybe those who own and run BushcraftUK.com could take such an agenda forward ?
P
Sorry it's a long post but I think the content is valid.
The permit idea is a good one. But it is definitely not simple one. In fact this whole issue is very complicated.
The Forestry Commission and it's Agencies are Public Bodies - accountable to Ministers (DEFRA).As with any public body there needs to be accountability.
The problem with a permit system is that someone needs to run it, regulate it and inspect it.
Who would administer the registration system for Bushcrafters ?
Would the Forestry Commission act as Regulator ?
What sort of regulatory framework would be required to enable bushcraft activities to take place?
Would the already hard pressed rangers and officials of the Forestry Commission have to take on these duties on top of their existing responsibilities and if so, where would the financial resources come from ?
And finally the do existing bylaws/legislation need to be changed.
These are all tricky issues but I think there is a legitimate agenda for debate here.
You just need to make sure you do it in the right way. Public Bodies have never been more approachable or been more prepared to engage with the wider communities to discuss the process of policy making and regulation.
Has anyone taken the time to read through the Forestry Commission's published literature and public commitments ?
On their website and in their publication 'Our work today' the Commission says that,
"We try to ensure that, when our activities may have an impact on a community or a person, we involve them as soon as possible explaining, listening and taking account of their views.
This consultation process covers all aspects of our business, from paying out grants, to felling trees, timber haulage plans and plans for new walks or community woodlands.
We often go further. Many communities become so involved that they begin to take management decisions about the future of woods around them. Some enter into partnerships with us and some go as far as buying a forest and manage it with our help to bring social and economic benefits to their area."
This sounds like a willingness to listen and engage to me.
I'm sure the 'Government' and all its agencies are well aware of organisations such as the Ramblers Association, the Caravan Association and other outdoorsy type groups. But I suspect that Bushcraft is a bit of an amorphous concept to them.
There is no doubt that Bushcraft is growing in popularity thanks to the increased profile on TV and the wider media Ray Mears and others (Bruce Parry, Benedict Allen, Nick Middleton etc)
BushcraftUK seems to be a thoroughly credible and responsible organisation which could do much to champion the cause of Bushcraft in the right circles. If we can engage positively with the relevant organisations and explain how bushcrafters differ from campers with caravans, ramblers and travelers, then I'm sure that these organisations would begin to respond to the needs of our community. One of the firsts steps is to ensure that the Forestry Commission, its Agencies and Ministers understand the needs of bushcrafters/Campers/Backwoodsmen or whatever we think of ourselves as.
If you are contemplating writing to your MP to raise awareness of the Bushcraft community, you might ask him or her, to write to Jim Knight MP Parliamentary Undersecretary has responsibility for Forestry, Access, rights of way and Common Land at DEFRA.
General whinging, protesting and illegal camping is not the right way to go about it. Well, not and get positive results anyway.
Maybe those who own and run BushcraftUK.com could take such an agenda forward ?
P
Apart from the servers that the forum etc runs on and the moderation of the forum to comply with BCUK rules, I think it safe to say (Tony or anyone else please correct me if I'm way off base here) that we the members are BCUK and we should not expect those who provide this service to do all the work for us.
There are a number of organisations who make a living training buscraft skills and a positive start would be somekind of proffesional organisation/association that can represent the community. This would then form a core to any lobbying towards a change in policy.
As a group (BCUK) and as individuals we could then work within this body to promote our interests to FC etc.
Afterall without groups like the British Canoe Union, access to waterways wouldn't be anywhere near as good as it is today (although it's still poor because of riparian rights) but the BCU are campaigning to change this.
It must also be remembered that these things take years, decades sometimes to have an impact.
My 2 pennies worth.
There are a number of organisations who make a living training buscraft skills and a positive start would be somekind of proffesional organisation/association that can represent the community. This would then form a core to any lobbying towards a change in policy.
As a group (BCUK) and as individuals we could then work within this body to promote our interests to FC etc.
Afterall without groups like the British Canoe Union, access to waterways wouldn't be anywhere near as good as it is today (although it's still poor because of riparian rights) but the BCU are campaigning to change this.
It must also be remembered that these things take years, decades sometimes to have an impact.
My 2 pennies worth.
I can see arguments for and against a national membership association.
For:
Representation to government, FC etc
Possibly negotiating rights to camp, use fires, etc
3rd party insurance scheme?
Better public profile
Land purchase?
Against
In Scotland arguably little to gain as we already have generous access rights.
Some aspects of bushcraft (canoeing, archery, hunting) already represented by established organisations.
Possibly not enough members. Only half of radio hams join their national body, and for many hobbies/pusuits the proportion is more like one fifth.
Young organisations sometimes split into factions!
Is bushcraft a passing fad, like CB radio? It may be already at its popularity peak? There is already a certain amount of repetition on RM's programs, and, indeed, on the forum.
For:
Representation to government, FC etc
Possibly negotiating rights to camp, use fires, etc
3rd party insurance scheme?
Better public profile
Land purchase?
Against
In Scotland arguably little to gain as we already have generous access rights.
Some aspects of bushcraft (canoeing, archery, hunting) already represented by established organisations.
Possibly not enough members. Only half of radio hams join their national body, and for many hobbies/pusuits the proportion is more like one fifth.
Young organisations sometimes split into factions!
Is bushcraft a passing fad, like CB radio? It may be already at its popularity peak? There is already a certain amount of repetition on RM's programs, and, indeed, on the forum.
You make very valid points Moduser.
I've been in, and seen similar situations, in many different sectors and have had more than a little experience in responding to both the public and briefing directly them wot govern.
Most sectors have trade bodies or associations that represent the needs of their members and lobby Government where necessary.
I wasn't suggesting BushcraftUK do all the work, just that it is a responsible organisation whose members and users have a vested interest in Bushcraft and that maybe BushcraftUK could be the umbrella organisation though which the ball could start rolling.
Bushcraft companies and Outdoor Activities companies are probably well aware of which regulatory regimes they fall under and what legislation applies to them. They will also have negotiated with landowners or the relevant authorities where they can legitimately locate their courses.
It's a bit different for the average citizen who wants to engage in these activities without taking part in a recognised course. I for one can't afford a £100 every time I want to camp out for a weekend. And the challenge of learning on my own is one of the elements of camping which I enjoy.
If Bushcrafty companies could unite to form such an association that members of BushcraftUK could then support I think that only positive things might arise given time.
Your point about the BCU is particularly pertinent and a good illustration.
Paul
I've been in, and seen similar situations, in many different sectors and have had more than a little experience in responding to both the public and briefing directly them wot govern.
Most sectors have trade bodies or associations that represent the needs of their members and lobby Government where necessary.
I wasn't suggesting BushcraftUK do all the work, just that it is a responsible organisation whose members and users have a vested interest in Bushcraft and that maybe BushcraftUK could be the umbrella organisation though which the ball could start rolling.
Bushcraft companies and Outdoor Activities companies are probably well aware of which regulatory regimes they fall under and what legislation applies to them. They will also have negotiated with landowners or the relevant authorities where they can legitimately locate their courses.
It's a bit different for the average citizen who wants to engage in these activities without taking part in a recognised course. I for one can't afford a £100 every time I want to camp out for a weekend. And the challenge of learning on my own is one of the elements of camping which I enjoy.
If Bushcrafty companies could unite to form such an association that members of BushcraftUK could then support I think that only positive things might arise given time.
Your point about the BCU is particularly pertinent and a good illustration.
Paul
Paul,
This is the quandry I find myself in.
Same here. I have not attended a course, not sure I will as most of them are aimed at a basic level (I know I don't know everything - far, far from it - and I would definately get something out of any course attended but for the money I find them difficult to justify), but I still want to practice and develop my skills.
What to do?
It's a tough question with no simple answer.
This is the quandry I find myself in.
Same here. I have not attended a course, not sure I will as most of them are aimed at a basic level (I know I don't know everything - far, far from it - and I would definately get something out of any course attended but for the money I find them difficult to justify), but I still want to practice and develop my skills.
What to do?
It's a tough question with no simple answer.
bambodoggy
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
moduser said:
On a purely skills level you could always book into a higher level course, most schools now do an advanced course... The Journeyman, the Nomad, Vildmark and all the others..... But this doesn't help with the cash situation I agree.....
The only problem I can see with a governing body is that once you have one it can become a monster and decide how things have to be done when we all know full well that there are lots of different ways to do things in bushcraft. I'd hate to be told I can't get insurance for a course I was running because I'm not a member of XXX governing body, who in turn won't have me because I choose to teach say the pump drill instead of the bow drill to light a fire.... Silly example but you get my point
Bam.
go away for a few days, and found I have stirred up a Hornets nest
sorry if I broke any rules and regs, I am just too passionate about people getting outside and enjoying the countryside!
Don't camp illegally kids! it's not big and it's not clever!
just stay at home watching the Telly and binge drink
sorry if I broke any rules and regs, I am just too passionate about people getting outside and enjoying the countryside!
Don't camp illegally kids! it's not big and it's not clever!
just stay at home watching the Telly and binge drink
Stoddy - looks to me like you generated a very worth while thread that has got a very constructive debate going.
Moduser - What to do ? Well my thanks go to bambodoggy (Cheers mate) in this instance because he made a suggestion that hopefully will mean I can use a local campsite to practice my campcraft skills.
I approached the warden for a campsite (64 acres of woods and clearings) and subject to then getting confirmation of my CRB (Criminal Records Bureau Check- which will be fine ) it looks like I'll be able to camp there all year round. It's a three mile yomp with my Bergen so I can even get there by foot and save on fuel emissions.
There will always be others using the place and I doubt that I'll be able to disappear into the woodland to enjoy an uninterrupted weekend - Sure it's not some remote Scottish loch surrounded by mountains woodland and deer and it's certainly not Sweden (you lucky thing Abbe !) - It's South East London. But I can have my fires, sling my Hammock (so to speak) and practise all the things that I read about. Job done.
I guess if you haven't got a campsite local to you, then you could always do just what andyn and SMARTYsuggested in the 'National Parks' thread ( http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=8408&page=3&pp=10) and walk up to the nearest farm house or speak to the land owner in person and ask.
Paul
Moduser - What to do ? Well my thanks go to bambodoggy (Cheers mate) in this instance because he made a suggestion that hopefully will mean I can use a local campsite to practice my campcraft skills.
I approached the warden for a campsite (64 acres of woods and clearings) and subject to then getting confirmation of my CRB (Criminal Records Bureau Check- which will be fine
) it looks like I'll be able to camp there all year round. It's a three mile yomp with my Bergen so I can even get there by foot and save on fuel emissions. There will always be others using the place and I doubt that I'll be able to disappear into the woodland to enjoy an uninterrupted weekend - Sure it's not some remote Scottish loch surrounded by mountains woodland and deer and it's certainly not Sweden (you lucky thing Abbe !) - It's South East London. But I can have my fires, sling my Hammock (so to speak) and practise all the things that I read about. Job done.
I guess if you haven't got a campsite local to you, then you could always do just what andyn and SMARTYsuggested in the 'National Parks' thread ( http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=8408&page=3&pp=10) and walk up to the nearest farm house or speak to the land owner in person and ask.
Paul
maybe bcuk could get official recognition via a membership scheme .maybe annual public liability insurance cover for members as a token of our respect,regard for the countryside and to show that we are not litter spewing loudmouthed louts. I know it goes against freedom of movement but if it can give us greater access for members then i for one would be willing to sign up to such a scheme. but to be fair there is two sides and it would take recognition from landowners and fc to get this to work.
tom ( just a thought )
tom ( just a thought )
P Wren said:Stoddy - looks to me like you generated a very worth while thread that has got a very constructive debate going.
Moduser - What to do ? Well my thanks go to bambodoggy (Cheers mate) in this instance because he made a suggestion that hopefully will mean I can use a local campsite to practice my campcraft skills.
I approached the warden for a campsite (64 acres of woods and clearings) and subject to then getting confirmation of my CRB (Criminal Records Bureau Check- which will be fine
There will always be others using the place and I doubt that I'll be able to disappear into the woodland to enjoy an uninterrupted weekend - Sure it's not some remote Scottish loch surrounded by mountains woodland and deer and it's certainly not Sweden (you lucky thing Abbe !) - It's South East London. But I can have my fires, sling my Hammock (so to speak) and practise all the things that I read about. Job done.
I guess if you haven't got a campsite local to you, then you could always do just what andyn and SMARTYsuggested in the 'National Parks' thread ( http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=8408&page=3&pp=10) and walk up to the nearest farm house or speak to the land owner in person and ask.
Paul
A campsite that allows fires in woodland? You're lucky man. I'd be totally up for that, as a step down from wild camping... But I reckon I'd be hard pressed to find a woodland campsite near me that would allow fires.
This is a great thread guys, for one we know that people read the forums, some of them are probable decision makers and the way youre developing ideas and thinking things through has great merit. Im interested to see what you finally agree would be a good course of action, although there might be a few that have equal merit and should be pursued independently.
There is an opportunity to change things, but the slightest foot out of place could jeopardise the chances of success with these organisations and land owners in general. Its going to take everyone being responsible and law abiding to prove that supporting bushcrafters is a good decision that will not be abused, but will be of benefit to both us and them. This is where having threads about wild camping could be detrimental to your long term desires.
Stick with it and youll get somewhere.
There is an opportunity to change things, but the slightest foot out of place could jeopardise the chances of success with these organisations and land owners in general. Its going to take everyone being responsible and law abiding to prove that supporting bushcrafters is a good decision that will not be abused, but will be of benefit to both us and them. This is where having threads about wild camping could be detrimental to your long term desires.
Stick with it and youll get somewhere.
JoshG there are bound to be some scout camps in the Stockton-on-tees area, why don't you approach the wardens directly tell them that you are a keen outdoors type and that you want to learn and practise bushcraft.
Like Ed and Tony said ask you might be pleasantly surprised by the response. Offer to puck up rubbish on their land or patch up a broken fence or two and I'm sure they'd be only too pleased to let you hang around in Hammocks and cook some bannock bread.
If you can't find a local scout site why not write or e-mail to the Scout Association. For those young enough why not join - I wish I had - for those who are older with experience of Bushcraft, volunteering and sharing your knowledge my be the ideal way to promote Bushcraft and keep alive all those indigenous skill that we practise and learn.
Might even stop the 'yoof' staying at home and binge drinking in front of the TV eh stoddy?
As hard as it might be to believe, Governments and Agencies are not on the whole heartless bureaucracies whose sole aim is to put the noses of the its citizens out of joint. They are composed mostly of individuals who are committed to public service - plenty of whom love the outdoors - who are constantly trying to balance conflicting priorities to best meet the needs of the many while trying to devise sound and sustainable policies. I know of one who goes and helps out on a Scottish Croft and another who goes sea kayaking and camps out along the Scottish coast (with permission of landowners).
If we can engage positively with everyone from your local forestry Warden to the Officials in your Local Authority and on up to Officials in the Forestry Commission and DEFRA to promote a better understanding of Bushcraft I am sure that in time good things will happen. Well known personalities like Ray Mears, Bruce Parry, Nick Middleton, Bennedict Allen, John 'Lofty' Wiseman and Eddie McGhee, have all helped raise awareness in their own ways of Bushcraft and wilderness survival - and I think we as a community can deffinately build on this as we engage with the public and the autorities. But at the end of the day it's all about balancing expectations and above all these things take time.
There's not a lot we can do to create wilderness ares in Souf East London or densley populated area of the country - but theres alot we can do to try preserve it and maximise the use we get out of it.
(Mind you - since we make such disproportionately large contributions to the EU maybe we could start a whip round among the EU members and ask them to donate some 'wilderness' to us ! )
Paul
Like Ed and Tony said ask you might be pleasantly surprised by the response. Offer to puck up rubbish on their land or patch up a broken fence or two and I'm sure they'd be only too pleased to let you hang around in Hammocks and cook some bannock bread.
If you can't find a local scout site why not write or e-mail to the Scout Association. For those young enough why not join - I wish I had - for those who are older with experience of Bushcraft, volunteering and sharing your knowledge my be the ideal way to promote Bushcraft and keep alive all those indigenous skill that we practise and learn.
Might even stop the 'yoof' staying at home and binge drinking in front of the TV eh stoddy?
As hard as it might be to believe, Governments and Agencies are not on the whole heartless bureaucracies whose sole aim is to put the noses of the its citizens out of joint. They are composed mostly of individuals who are committed to public service - plenty of whom love the outdoors - who are constantly trying to balance conflicting priorities to best meet the needs of the many while trying to devise sound and sustainable policies. I know of one who goes and helps out on a Scottish Croft and another who goes sea kayaking and camps out along the Scottish coast (with permission of landowners).
If we can engage positively with everyone from your local forestry Warden to the Officials in your Local Authority and on up to Officials in the Forestry Commission and DEFRA to promote a better understanding of Bushcraft I am sure that in time good things will happen. Well known personalities like Ray Mears, Bruce Parry, Nick Middleton, Bennedict Allen, John 'Lofty' Wiseman and Eddie McGhee, have all helped raise awareness in their own ways of Bushcraft and wilderness survival - and I think we as a community can deffinately build on this as we engage with the public and the autorities. But at the end of the day it's all about balancing expectations and above all these things take time.
There's not a lot we can do to create wilderness ares in Souf East London or densley populated area of the country - but theres alot we can do to try preserve it and maximise the use we get out of it.
(Mind you - since we make such disproportionately large contributions to the EU maybe we could start a whip round among the EU members and ask them to donate some 'wilderness' to us !
)Paul
P Wren said:
well said!yoofs will always binge drink anyway (I know I did at 18
)In fact I am going to ring my local scout group, and ask if they need help.
I went through the cubs, scouts and Army cadets, and believe that it gave me hope as a child living in a poor mining town in Yorkshire.
that is why I joined the Army.
Speaking from experience, most young lads (no expert on ladies
) love camping out, eating food cooked on an open fire, building shelters etc..it might be a better way to practice my bushcraft
Similar threads
