Worst case scenario
- Thread starter Madriverrob
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Oh dear, I have just been triggered, DSM5 (the roman numerals were dropped for the latest edition) does happen to be something I know a fair bit about, and it's predecessor for that matter, as well as the transition between them. There is more to it than scientific research alone and there is still a lot of debate about the validity of some of what is described in it. In any case it is not as radical a revision as some wanted and that is entirely down to clinical and academic politics. I have had dinner and got drunk with some of the luminaries behind DSM5 and discussed it's relationship to ICD which again is political. I actually gave a presentation at the conference called for the UK launch of DSM5 which was the reason for my having attended the aforementioned dinner. PTSD is not my specialty however, but I know it when I see it, it's not just military combat and traumatic accidents, it is emergent from any kind of past abuse or unpleasant experience. Santaman might want to brazen it out from a particular sociological perspective that is an open book, but he is not immune any more than the next person.
The things that give me recurrent nightmares, and make me jump when I hear a door slam, you wouldn't want to know about, but that was all part of growing up.
Any way to lighten up, I used to know a guy who was a red cross instructor and I think the worst kind of First Aid pedant ever, who would find fault with any first aid advice you cared to mention. One of those people who considered himself to be the most complete expert there ever was. I think sometimes there is a little bit of that in all of us when we only look through our own spectacles.
It isn't about worth. Everyone's opinion is welcome. But if an opinion contains inaccuracies/bias, it is perfectly acceptable to challenge it.
I challenged the OP's opinion RE the equipment he carried.
You and your minions took offense to this, decided to challenge my credentials (which I gave, rather than offered beforehand), at which point you assumed I was full of nonsense, and decided to attack - with you and the attack of others being here for all to see - despite my continued efforts to discuss the subject matter at hand.
What the thread has revealed is your incapacity to put on your listening ears & your failure to appreciate perhaps a few here are genuinely trying to help.
From what can be garnered thus far, you have absolutely no experience in the type of scenario the OP is mentioning, yet you feel compelled to continually go against everything two people posting here who do have such experience (i.e. myself & Scarlet) are offering.
RE the insults from yourself & others: you should consider whether the manner of your speaking is the way you'd address someone in real life.
I say that to all here who felt compelled to proceed with the attempts at humiliation.
Bacon !
let's talk bacon ...
Surely we can all agree how we all love bacon ....and how bacon makes the world go round and how campfire bacon tastes better than "home cooked" bacon.
Morale of the story, worse case scenario we run out of bacon.....
Can't beat a bit of bacon.
Won't find much around a campfire in Yemen, though.
Shame, that.
I'm sorry but I'm not engaging in a row on the forum with you. I know and am known by a good number of people on this site in the real world. I don't know you from Adam and owe you nothing. I'm not inclined to think we might get on chum.
You have failed to establish your credentials and have produced views so extreme that others have branded you a Troll. I'm not interested in humiliating you, in fact you are doing a really good job at that yourself. You could stop digging but keep posting stuff at me to try and engage me. So let me make it clear, this is my last post. If it makes you feel better -you win!
Scarlett you say you want a reasoned debate but actually your ad hominem approach shows that's not true. Sorry if being a civilian rules me out from being useful in your mind. First Aid teachers generally do so in the full hope it might equip their students with some skills that might sometime serve their communities. I cannot imagine a mindset of teaching without this hope!
Openhandedly, I trust you get the support you need. I have very good friends who have come out of the theatres you have served in with their lives torn apart. I hope you get the help and support you need. Help for Heroes (Ted House) have been instrumental in getting my mates back on the rails. It takes time and good support really does help.
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I do not think that being a civilian rules you - or anyone else - out from being useful; that is clearly absurd, and not what I said. I am not attacking you, but your arguments. Disagreeing is not ad hominem. On the other hand you do not seem able or willing to support the points you make, choosing instead to try to close down discussion by insulting those who don't agree with you.
As for first aid, I think everyone should learn it, and it should be part of the school curriculum, as should mental health awareness.
Had somehow missed this post!
Thank you for clarifying. Still makes your early remarks inexplicable.
Well not taking sides but to fair, MountainGoat did actually state that he was a Patrol Medic within the Pathfinder Platoon of 16 Air Assault.
If he isnt a Walt ( which I seriously doubt) then his training as a Patrol Medic is very indepth and putting that with his apparent real life experience I'd suggest he knows exactly what he is talking about.
If he isnt a Walt ( which I seriously doubt) then his training as a Patrol Medic is very indepth and putting that with his apparent real life experience I'd suggest he knows exactly what he is talking about.
Honestly...I don't know these days....alot has changed sincd I left the army & even more since I left 5AB.
I am assuming (and I know assumption is often the mother of all F*** ups) that the PF Platoon has a similar set up to an SAS Patrol in which one of the patrol members is a designated Patrol Medic and qualified to civilian standard Paramedic
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Our posts must have crossed Greg. I unreservedly apologise for suggesting Mountaingoat may be a Walt to anybody reading and the man himself. I'm not demanding his MOD90 and accept this information at face value! (My Dad was a Pathfinder too!)
However, I reread the whole thread on a PC this morning and his early statements read as bizarre and dismissive of initial care, far from the kind of response I would expect of someone with this level of training.
As for the fishing on my experience of granular hemostats, I have no idea where that was going other than some kind of ambush. Assume that at this level of training and dependant on when trained this would have been part of trauma training.
Granular Haemostats fell from favour some years ago across the board. I believe this was because the idea of using them on a spurting arterial bleed makes pouring a powder into the wound "difficult" as does gravity dependant on wound location. Some of the early powdered Haemostats also had an exothermic reaction. You ended up dealing with a chemical burn too. I've never used haemostats in granular form. (Is that what you wanted to hear?)The MOD themselves now use Celox in an impregnated gauze form. This is stuffed into the wound and held with a pressure and then pressure bandage(S) applied. I have some ex MOD Celox here "for training" if anyone wants to see it? No, I obviously we don't teach the use of Haemostats at the level I operate at. My personal experience has used Celox impregnated products in training, also on a pig but I guess somewhat fresher! Poor piggy got stitched up by me too! My personal kit carries a Celox alternative Chito-sam. I haven't used that in anger either for which I am eternally grateful.
The obvious outcome of not taking action in a situation that merits use of either Celox or a CAT is rapid bleed out and death. Nobody has ever been prosecuted for attempting first aid. Funnily enough in France they have for not trying. Yes I understand that internal injuries due to overpressure in an explosion may later claim their life but I would hope that by then the casualty was in hospital receiving medical-surgical intervention. Id rather live with the fact I tried and failed and gave them the chance, than not have tried. Nobody would blame you for a bleed out if you cant stop that. CPR has a similar low chance of resuscitation and a lower chance of patient long term outcome but we are all trained to try! Obviously good triage is that you go with the people you can give the best chance of survival. Actually in a Wilderness or maritime setting this is something that is even more pronounced. You are potentially in a location where you can exhaust yourself to a point where you put your own rescue/survival at risk.
I spend a lot of time with forces guys. I have been trained by and with guys from the forces and special forces across a range of skills pertaining to my pursuits over the years and have quite a lot of respect for them generally. I hope the first aid training I have received is useful if I'm ever going to use it. In incidents in the past it certainly has been. Familiarity with the mechanics of the equipment that you are using certainly helps deal with a demanding situation. Having a CAT and knowing the mechanics of its use would be most helpful in a situation where you have to treat a catastrophic bleed. My initial First Aid training many years ago was directly to deal with a mass casualty event at an airport. So there are civilian equivalents to battlefield situations. I have no question that even being on scene in a real incident would be deeply traumatic. Am I superman? Sadly not but I do seem to have a window in severe adversity where I can function pretty well. Is that a guarantee? No but I have friends who have vastly more experience than I who would respond with fight or flight to the initial explosion so a civilians response may not be any more predictable than someone ex-forces.
As a matter of interest I believe the next generation of training coming down the line is C DRAB where the C is for Catastrophic Bleeding
For my dollar the OP should go with the kit that gives him comfort. I think carrying £20 in the hope that the shops are open is a poor substitute.
Last 3 times I called an ambulance had a response time of 40 minutes (twice) and 2 hours though admittedly at 1 hour 40 the first responder arrived and then joined the district nurse who had chased 5 times. Remind me what the life expectancy of an arterial bleed is anyone?
Genuinely, my last post. Really by way of apology and explanation of my points as requested by SP.
I don't know what has happened to this forum recently. It was always such a friendly place.
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I guess some people including myself get a bit heated when discussing a subject they are passionate about.
But the forum as a whole isn't a bad place.
As for the OP, I personally don't think there is any harm in being prepared with a small portable EDC...and I disagree with MountainGoat on that but I'm not going to get into a debate about it...each to their own IMHO...as long as they have a level of training and competency to use the kit they are carrying.
But the forum as a whole isn't a bad place.
As for the OP, I personally don't think there is any harm in being prepared with a small portable EDC...and I disagree with MountainGoat on that but I'm not going to get into a debate about it...each to their own IMHO...as long as they have a level of training and competency to use the kit they are carrying.
And this, really, is what I was getting at; the unpredictability of the reaction to a critical incident. Training is a protective factor, but it doesn't make you immune. It seems we do agree in the end!
Thanks for the reply; it's appreciated.
The problem for me is that i believe the view has been expressed that civilian first aid training is pointless in a traumatic mass casualty event. That us mere civvies would crumble under the stress of the situation. That only those who have had military training and have experience of combat/disaster situations would be able to respond effectively.
I would respectfully disagree.
There is no foolproof way to know how any individual will respond in such a situation, regardless of training. Some will shatter, some will shine. At least with some level of training those who shine will be more effective, while those who shatter MIGHT fall back on their training to collect themselves and not run from the situation.
In a mass casualty trauma incident (e.g. minibus crash on the M1 over the weekend) any form of training may save a life, even if applied with a shaking hand and feces in your trousers!
Don't worry about it CM.
I've noticed over a number of years or so that some of the discussions here at BCUK seem get a little more heated in the northern hemisphere summer months. (But then, again, I've noted and discussed Equinoctial Gales with other seafarers that, apparently, official statistics dispute. Obviously the official statistics are wrong!)
Maybe it's the heat? Maybe it's having one's offsprung home full-time from school or uni for a few weeks? Whatever.
I've still found the thread interesting.
Humans react differently when exposed to 'situations' no matter the training.
The Gung Ho macho soldier can crap his pants and collapse crying in the first firefight. The Medic can 'freeze' on his first assignement.
This will weed them out. Only people that can 'take it' mentally will continue.
The Gung Ho macho soldier can crap his pants and collapse crying in the first firefight. The Medic can 'freeze' on his first assignement.
This will weed them out. Only people that can 'take it' mentally will continue.
Knowledge and being able to improvise what you need I feel is key and take stock of your environment all the time, as for what to carry a knife or blade of some form is a good basic, it gives you a chance to make other things, and a torch, are prime sense is sight but all this you know, If you find yourself in the middle of something crazy you can see the worst and best of people, just try and deal with it one step at a time and keep your solutions simple.
I think the first aid kit is good but that will only cover a few wounds, what of multiple casualty's?
I think the first aid kit is good but that will only cover a few wounds, what of multiple casualty's?
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