Wolves In Scotland.....

[PhilParry]

Thought I'd post this link as I found it very interesting....

Wolves in Scotland

Quite thought provoking, I think!!

Phil

 

[Ben_Hillwalker]

It's nice to hear that the debate is still on the go, but there has been talk of reintroducing wolves into Scotland for years so I'm not going to hold my breath.

But damn, just imagine if they did reintroduce them

Awoooooooo

 

[hammock monkey]

hope they do this...

lynx is the one i want to see introduced. beautiful.

 

[gregorach]

Even if lynx were re-introduced, you'd never see one...

 

[Heathenpeddler]

I think it would be a terrible idea - for the wolves.

I can't imagine a country as full as this one having enough territory for wolves that will not include, intentionally or not, farmland. And farmers everywhere have a historical hatred of wolves. Whether or not they would go anywhere near the livestock is irrelevant, any deaths or disappearances would be blamed on them and they would be shot whether it was illegal or not. We just don't have the wild space left for them, which is one reason they were destroyed here in the first place.

 

[hammock monkey]

haha, you're probably right.
might have a chance in the snow (if that isnt also a thing of the past)
just to track one would be enough for me.

 

[PhilParry]

What a great shame that farmers can't appear to live in (relative) harmony with the animals that existed 1000's of years in the country before them....

What's worse?


Phil

 

[hammock monkey]

if the farmers are re-imbursed for the sheep fully - as the article mentions, then the boost in eco tourism would be fantatstic to them, b&b's etc.
bring it on i say, its going to be hard to find a perfect balance - but its worth a try.
other animals like the konig/ tarpans on wicken fen (i think they were on Wild Food t'other week) have worked well. its great to be able to see them, they are beautiful beasts, with the wild cattle as well....life is good

 

[locum76]

i mentioned this on another thread. maybe it would be a better idea to introduce a small number on one of scotland bigger outlying islands. There'd be no problems for farmers, less danger of attacks on people and it would be very easily controlled. Bushcrafters, trackers and the like could visit the island whenever they liked. Apparently Rhum is heavily overpopulated by deer at the moment...

 

[swagman]

What a great shame that farmers can't appear to live in (relative) harmony with the animals that existed 1000's of years in the country before them....

What's worse?


Phil

The farmers cant even live with foxes so there is no way they would want
wolves. I dont think it would be a good idea to re introduced them.

 

[jerv]

farmers??????? There really ain't that many farms in the highlands of scotland. In fact in many places there don't seem to be much of anything apart from wind and deer.
There is an interesting Land Use question here and before I start I might cut off much criticism to say I was born and raised on a Scottish sheep farm and currently work in agriculture. However how much revenue does sheep farming produce compared with tourism? Would the recreation of a more complete Scottish ecosystem increase the flow of tourists into the country?
if you go for a walk in the peak district or the dales you see dead sheep everywhere, so there is a certain amount of natural wastage expected. At least with wolves farmers would stand a chance of compensation. In some areas of europe wolves live in very close proximity to humans with little trouble, far more densly populated areas than the highlands.
You'd have to keep the wolves nervous around people to keep them away from domestic animals (and dogs, they HATE dogs) by shooting one or two every year. I reckon you could charge quite a bit to allow someone to go wolf hunting in the highlands, and then use that revenue to pay compensation.
We have to remember that wolves would not be being reintroduced for our benefit. They would be reintroduced for the benefit of the ecosystem.
We should also beware that the excessive pessimissim and negativity of contemporary British Culture (particularly the news media) is highly contagious.

 

[big_swede]

The researchers' findings used a predator/prey model to assess the probable consequences on the Highland's red deer population.

That's what I find interesting. All their theories stems from a simple mathematical model. And they are not really that good, or advanced enough either, a lot of parameters aren't included. (figures, biologists shouldn't do math...)

Locums idea of a island as a test area sounds interesting on the other hand.

\B_S (who doesn't know so much about conditions in the highlands, only been there once, but who likes large scale bioscience )

 

[jerv]

Wolves seem to keep small deer populations in check but don't have much impact when prey animals exist in large numbers (such as caribou) you can read more in David Mech's excellent book "the wolf". I was quite suprised by that statement in the article. the last time this was raise on this forum the fugure of twenty or so deer a year was given as the food for one pack.
However seeing as the red deer haven't been predated (by four legged predators anyway) for about two hundred years they may be pretty vulnerable and easily taken (until the wolves get fat!)

 

[dommyracer]

Hmm interesting ideas.

There's a couple of lobbies for and against this I suppose.

First off, I have always heard and read that Wolves are pretty shy animals.
This being the case, as long as they weren't subject to constant human contact, wouldn't they prefer to hunt the deer, away from humans, rather than take sheep etc from farms?

The other point that comes to mind is the deerstalking businesses. If the wolves were taking all the deer, then there might not be a surplus for people to shoot.
I suspect those businesses / estates that sell stalking trips would have something to say about that.

I have no answers to this, but a lot of questions.

 

[Wayland]

There are some arguments that wolves would contribute more to the Scottish economy than the farmers in the Highlands.

It'll be interesting to see how this pans out.

 

[dommyracer]

Bring back wolves, bring back crofters....?

 

[dean2]

Anything that is potentionally good ecologically, is worth trying out, so i think its a good idea to follow up on !!!!!!

cheers

Dean

 

[Geuf]

If there is a overpopulation of deer, the problem could easyily be solved by means of hunt. The same way as the 'wolf problem' (as this is how they probably saw it until the 1700's) was solved. This is how it works and this is how it will work in the future. Especially if there is money or power involved. Man will always try to control nature, for better or for worse, drilling for oil and killing all the fish or trying to restore a natural balance that has been there for maybe thousands of years by means of reintroducing animals. eventually it doesn´t really matter what you try to do, because you won´t fix the imbalance. Nature does. But it would be an inrichment and addition to the value of an area, a land, a country to control nature by natural means and by restoring nature´s solutions instead of human technological solutions. I think if these animals where re-introduced into the wild as a part of the ecosystem it would be an addition to the land and people living in that land should be proud of the fact that they live with and closer to a natural balanced surrounding than many other people. Because that is exaclty what is wrong. Not that some wolves will kill some sheep. No, the fact that a lot of people fear a part of nature and have grown apart of it, that is the exact problem as a I see it. And that is also in my opinion what bushcraft is about, embracing nature, instead of rejecting it.

my 2 cents

 

[gregorach]

We do hunt deer. We have estates that make most of their money off hunting, we have mass culls, and we still can't keep the numbers in check. Back when we wiped out the wolves, Scotland was in many ways less "remote" than it is now. Areas which are now empty "apart from wind and deer" as jerv says, were once quite heavily populated.

Mind you, it might be easier if the silly end of the animal rights movement didn't start screaming every time there's a cull...

 

[gregorach]

Bizarrely enough, there's an article about this on The Register this morning...

Scotland says nay to the big bad wolf

SNH's director of science, Professor Colin Galbraith, said of the study: "It's a bit theoretical, but it's quite well done in terms of the science."

He insisted, however, that the "central issue of proving that a reintroduction was 'socially acceptable' was actually essential, both legally and practically". The World Conservation Union's guidelines for reintroducing species specify that "if an animal was once hunted to extinction by humans, it would be unacceptable to reintroduce that animal where it would again be targeted by man".

Galbraith noted: "That's very, very important. This is where the concept of reintroducing wolves to Scotland probably falls down."

Regarding the deer issue, Professor John Milne, chairman of Scotland's deer commission, dismissed several of the study's main assumptions as "flawed". He said there was no consensus that deer numbers were too high, and added that deer-stalking - apparently described by the report as "trophy-hunting" - actually injected £105m into the rural economy while creating around 2,500 "full-time equivalent" jobs.

The crux of the matter, though, lies with the issue of sheep. The Royal Society admits that "80 per cent of sheep deaths in the Highlands of Spain are the result of wolves". There are estimated to be several thousand wolves in Spain, the majority in the north of Castilla y Leon and rural human depopulation has encouraged a gradual spread of the species - to the growing alarm of livestock farmers.

The Royal Society researchers admit: "If, as it seems probable, wolf predation on sheep in Scotland would be at a similar level, it would reduce flock sizes."