Winter Hill Walking...

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george

Settler
Oct 1, 2003
627
6
61
N.W. Highlands (or in the shed!)
Mikey p - you can learn to arrest with poles. It's not as certain as with an axe but it does work. It's a very useful technique to learn -as you say it's sometimes difficult to judge just when to change to an axe, so you could find yourself in a position where you are on difficult ground and all you've got in your hand is your poles.

Basically you grab the bottom of a pole near the spike with one hand, reach up the pole about two feet with the other and holding the pole at right angles to the slope use the spike to brake. You cant have your hand in the wrist loops to use this technique so it makes sense to slip them out if you get on to dodgy ground.
Difficult technique to use effectively - but much better than nothing!

George
 

gb

Forager
Nov 4, 2003
134
0
Cornwall
:yikes: :yikes: ! you've got me worried now!!
Seriously though, from what you've all said it sounds like i might be better off waiting until i've done a winter skills course - i'm gonna be on my own and have no experience of going up Scottish hills in winter whatsoever.
And if i did get into difficulties i would be putting other peoples lives in danger aswell as my own.
Not to worry though as theres plenty of forest to explore at lower levels, so that should keep me occupied for the week. :eek:):


Thanks for the help everyone, :You_Rock_
 

RobertsonPau

Tenderfoot
Dec 7, 2004
60
0
55
North Yorkshire,UK
I've spent a lot of days and nights on the hills all over the UK and there is nothing to compare to the conditions in Scotland. They have some of the most extremes of weather, as an example the Cairngorms is the only place that reindeer live in the UK. If you want to go play up there try speaking to Glenmore Lodge, just down the road from Aviemore, about their Winter Skills courses, I went on a couple before I got seriously into the Mountain Leader qualifications and can highly recommend them.

And if you want to meet the reindeer you can go to the farm at the foot of Cairngorm and meet and feed them, it's really interesting talking to the staff there.

Paul
 

alick

Settler
Aug 29, 2003
632
0
Northwich, Cheshire
My own two pen'orth.

Without knowing how to use them, axe and crampons may be more hazard than help. i.e they may give you the impression that you have a safety factor and tempt you to go a little further than you would be comfortable with otherwise.

Althought Wayne makes an excellent point that it's very un-PC to recommend that someone doesn't take a piece of safety kit, it's skills and knowledge that come first. I despair of some of the walkers I've seen out and about the lakes playing about with long walking axes in two inches of snow on some tiny incline and totally messing up their balance and posture. They're asking for an accident !

An axe on it own is next to no use on ice. If you expect ice, then you need crampons and some practice walking in them so as not to trip over your own feet. If you do have the crampons, then on anything shallow, the axe won''t have anything to do. Stay upright and relaxed, think about good balance and just walk. The summer walk up to the top of snowdon from the car park at pen-y pass via the lakes is a case in point. Training shoes in summer, but the path covers in sheets of water ice if it's cold/ windy in winter. It you don't have spikes, you've no business trying to continue up this route.

Based on the two points above, my own view is that walking axes are often not the best tool. If I expect conditions may need them, I always take crampons and axe together, and the axe is a long (50cm) climbing axe. This is far shorter than a walking axe. There's no temptation to use it like a walking stick on gentle slopes, but when the slope is steep enough that an axe starts to be needed, the shorter length is much easier to handle. It has a full sized head so still makes a good brake. I'd be interested in the opinion of the experienced guys on that choice ...

Oh, and I totally agree with mmckniven, forget all this step cutting nonsense. It's hard work and a real skill that takes time to learn. If it's steep enough that you need to do this, you should be using crampons.

On soft snow, you can stomp around without campons much of the time and if it's not too steep and there's nothing to hit, I wouldn't let lack of these two tools stop me going out - I would be plan a route where I had time to to turn around and retrace my path if I met conditions that I couldn't deal with.

As you haven't done it before, the idea of renting an axe and some crampons and going out specifically to learn how to use them is excellent. It's good fun and as well as boosting your confidence when you've cracked it, it will teach you some of the limitations. Quick reactions are important to stopping a slide early before you build up speed. Once you're moving, your stopping distance can be rather long. A good analogy is stopping a car when it starts to skid. Knowing the theory isn't enough, you actually need practice to be able to do it.

Definately go with someone else, preferebly someone who can teach you, and try all the variations. You have to be able to stop all four slides - all combinations of feet first and head first, sliding on your stomach and back. Seems to me that it's usually the two head first falls that are more likely to get you. And don't cheat ! Head first on your stomach is a lot harder when you pack rides up, smacks the back of your head / helmet and stuffs your face in the snow :eek:):
Then do it with the crampons on so you know what happens when you go feet first, they catch and flip you head first :wave:

When you start to learn, you'll realise (maybe with some surprise) that you need what feels like a pretty steep slope to be able to slide at all, and how big a difference a smooth pair of waterproof pants / long jacket makes compared to more "wooly" clothes.

Be particularly careful about the thickness of snow and the potential for rocks. When I was much younger I had to accompany a very pretty and very embarassed lass to the local clinic to have repairs made to her bum after we failed to take enough care over this :yikes:

I think you have a great opportunity here - go for it :biggthump
 

arctic hobo

Native
Oct 7, 2004
1,630
4
37
Devon *sigh*
www.dyrhaug.co.uk
Wayne said:
You also have to remember that although you are comfortable and experienced in the mountain enviroment. Many readers here may not have your skills and advising people to leave safety kit at home maybe read out of context. We have a duty to promote best practise. Once people have mastered the basic skils they can then make informed choices about what riskd they are prepared to take.

:embarasse I'm silenced :sulk: :embarasse and slightly flattered :)
 

gb

Forager
Nov 4, 2003
134
0
Cornwall
Hi Paul, i watched the reindeer being fed last time i was up there, wonderful creatures.
Cheers for the advice Alick, you make a good point about being able to retreat if need be. I was planning to take the same routes up and down, so if i get halfway and lose my confidence or decide its way beyond my ability i can always turn around and go back down.
I guess i'll wait until i get there, get some practice in with iceaxe and crampons anyway, see what the conditions are like and then decide for sure.
I might even be able to find someone who knows what they're doing to tag along with.

I got a little while to decide yet anyways, so keep your thoughts coming.
cheers, gb
 

bambodoggy

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 10, 2004
3,062
50
49
Surrey
www.stumpandgrind.co.uk
Looking at where you're going I don't think you'll need anything other than your feet and maybe a walking pole or staff......having said that if they are cheap to rent then a walking axe won't hurt (unless you fall on it) and it's a good chance for you to try one and practice with it for the day when you will need it (clearly when you really need it isn't the time to be trying it out first time).....same applies to crampons etc....unless you are going up into the Lost Valley in Glencoe where there is a rather nice frozen waterfall (sometimes...when it's really cold anyway) and you fancy a bash at climbing it.....but if you get chance to hire them cheaply you may find somewhere you can have a little play.... It won't hurt to rent these items and carry them with you but DO learn to use them.....just walking about on soft grass with crampons gets you used to the idea of how they feel.

Why not wait and see exactly what the weather is doing and make a choice from there Mate....

I've never understood all the doom and gloom merchants that can't wait to tell you how bad it'll be up there "on them there hills", it's almost as if they don't want you to go! Yes, we've all heard the stories (true stories) of people up in the Scotish hills that aren't prepared and end up needing help or being dead but that happens to the most experienced people too.... We still have people freeze to death in stuck cars in England simply because they didn't have the right gear or the know how to stay warm.... Maybe it's not very PC but I'd say to go and to enjoy yourself.... you don't strike me as a nutter who's going up in the mountains in shorts and a t-shirt regardless of local advice or weather prediction (this is often the main base reason for problems occuring - idiots from the south coming all the way up and because of the long journey to get there and limited time to go out, they go out regardless when locals wouldn't dream of it).
The fact that you have planned escape routes and have already been mulling over the idea of turning round and coming back down at any point tells me you have a good attitude to going up and I therefore think you'll be fine.

Don't listen to the doom merchants, if the weather looks fine (mountain forecast needed...dont' just stick your head out of a window in the morning) then go up.....but ALWAYS keep your eyes and ears open and if you're not 100% sure then come back down. Know your limits, know your experience and don't push them further than you are comfortable with.....above all else, enjoy it....after all that's what you're there for! If it stops being fun...turn round and go down again......find a nice pub with an open fire and stay there till the weather changes! :eek:):

Good luck, I'm jealous as heck!!!! :wave:

((Please understand I mean no offence to anyone on here who has generously given advice from the hard earned experience of their own time in the hills - just remember back to when you were a bigginer.....where you perfect then and did you enjoy being freightened by horror stories? Yes the best way to learn is in a safe and controlled enviroment with your own MIA or MIC to look after you....but in the real world that isn't always possible and the hills are for everyone, not just those that can afford their own guides/instructors. with a good head on their shoulders and the correct kit and a little summer mountain skill then most people will be fine - if you disbelieve me then look at the ratio of people who go into the mountains/those killed in the mountains....it's safer than crossing the road. There are a few muppets that get into trouble through their own fault and few that do it through no fault of their own.....am I talking road crossing or mountains now? You decide....it applies to both! ).
 

Doc

Need to contact Admin...
Nov 29, 2003
2,109
10
Perthshire
I know that area, and have climbed Meall a Bhuchaille (the hill above the Ryvoan bothy) twice, and I've also climbed a few Munros (eg, Ben More Assynt) in winter.

I agree with mmcnivens posting. I would be wary of ascending even these hills without both crampons and ice axe at that time of year.

There is superb low level (but still remote) walking around this area.

It is interesting to note that the posters from Scotland are being rather more cautious in their advice - this may be a national trait but also reflects experience of these hills.
 

bambodoggy

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 10, 2004
3,062
50
49
Surrey
www.stumpandgrind.co.uk
Guys, I've just re-read my post and I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea of what I'm saying and it's certainly not to just go up regardless...

You must speak to locals and check forecasts and you mustn't over stretch yourselves....both physically or in skill.

All I'm saying is that it's not all doom and gloom and to bear in mind that one day you might need axe's and crampons and the next....you won't!

The Scots on here will (no matter how many times I visit the area) know infinately more about the area and weather patterns than I do and they are the ones to listen too.

I just don't want people put off because of all the horror stories they hear.....as I said it a beautiful area of the country and I want everyone to be able to enjoy it....SAFELY :eek:):
 

gb

Forager
Nov 4, 2003
134
0
Cornwall
Well i got back from Scotland on sunday night after a nice drive through through the snow.

I only went to glenmore for a day in the end, the tuesday after christmas, and it was way too wintry to even think about going up any hills with my level of experience, but the wind and snow made for an enjoyable day in the forest just wandering about.

Later in the week i went on a day trip near Ullapool and another in Culbin forest, no snow on these occassions but great fun non the less.
Thanks to everyone who offered advice, maybe next winter i'll get up some Scottish hills!

cheers gb
 

EdS

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
For my say I'd agree with Alick on axe selection.

I take a 50cm climbing axe (DMM Raptor to be correct) when I go walking & crampon. When I go climbing I take the axe, as it still short enough to climb but very comfortable on decent & side slopes, plus a shorted hammer & front points.
 

arctic hobo

Native
Oct 7, 2004
1,630
4
37
Devon *sigh*
www.dyrhaug.co.uk
If you're facing deep snow, a long handled walking axe is better... would always be my first choice. A techical axe has a rubber grip that stick to the snow making it hard to plunge and mostly have bent handles making it even harder. However I appreciate there are not many places with both deep snow and steep gradients in the UK
 

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