Winter Hill Walking...

[gb]

Basically what im wondering is, is it ok to go up smaller hills without ice axe and crampons?
I'm going to be in glenmore from the 27th to the 31st of this month, and from the weather forecasts it looks like it'll be quite wintery.
I know your ill advised to go onto the hills in winter in Scotland without the proper equipment, but smaller hills cant be any different than say dartmoor when its snowy can they? I'm well aware of all the other issues of winter walking like navigation when it's snowing and cold injuries, just not sure about needing an ice axe etc.

The hills i have in mind are not particulary steep and don't have any crags or anything to slip over, and if the avalanche risk is low it should be ok should'nt it. This one for example -

What say you lot? :biggthump or

cheers, gb

 

[johnboy]

Hi,

I'd err on the side of caution and depending on the conditions you find on the day and the weather forecast I'd be inclined to have a walking axe with me. Although if you are not sure how to use it it could prove more of a liability than a help. I'd take a walking axe to arrest a slip on steep ground and to provide a third leg in slippery conditions.

The top section of your intended route is steepish and a slip in snow or ice could prove interesting. If you are not sure of how to best use an ice axe then a good quality walking pole might prove useful in providing a bit of extra stability but is of course useless in helping to arrest a fall on a snow covered slope.

Just common sense really.

Hope this helps

John

 

[gb]

Cheers for that John, sounds like an ice axe might be a good idea then.
I've seen a demonstration of how to self arrest once but never had a go myself.
Maybe i'll rent an iceaxe for the week and practice for a day on some lower slopes. Sounds like the best bet.

cheers, gb

 

[arctic hobo]

I'd say that you'd be quite safe on those hills. If there's an avalanche, neither ice axe nor crampons will be of the slightest use to you. Spotting avalanches is a skill acquired with experience.
The reason for carrying an ice axe is for safety on proper mountains, which you won't need on those hills. If you use anything, get some crampons, or walking poles. Both will ensure you stay upright on slippery ice, but there's no real point on soft snow.
Cheers
Chris :wave:

 

[gb]

Cool, thats what i thought - if there are no cliffs to slip over i should be OK, but i might take an iceaxe anyway, save me sliding right to the bottom!! and for experience if nothing else.
I won't be going up any hills if theres an avalanche warning, but i'll do some reading up from my mountain handbook, so i have a chance of spotting any dangers.

cheers

 

[Wayne]

I disagree with Arctic Hobo. Crampons are more likely to ball up in soft snow and are not always necessary. You can kick or cut steps with your ice axe. Taking a long slide on a small hill and smashing your skull is an embarrassing way to go. in winter conditions an ice axe is a must.

 

[gb]

Hmmmm, i had'nt thought about bouncing off rocks! cheers Wayne.
I think i'll definately take an iceaxe (and learn how to use it before hand), seems like the safest thing to do even if i don't need it (which i hope i won't!)

cheers, gb

 

[jason01]

Youre not going to need crampons unless theres hard ice on the top and a walking axe is mostly for arresting a fall, for that hill I would save the money and not bother personally, its rare to have conditions in Scotland where you will need to cut steps. If you do want to get crampons you need to check the stiffness of your boots, you can put articulated crampons on softish boots but its not an ideal situation, if you get a walking axe just get the lightest cheapet one you can, should be ankle length if you stand upright and let the axe hang from your hand, and mind you dont fall on the pick



Jason

 

[gb]

Thanks Jason. My boots can take the flexible crampons but i don't think i'll bother with them.
IIRC somewhere in Aviemore rents out iceaxes and other equipment, so i won't have to buy one.

I just gotta hope for some decent wintry weather now!

cheers gb

 

[Mikey P]

If you do want to get crampons you need to check the stiffness of your boots, you can put articulated crampons on softish boots but its not an ideal situation, if you get a walking axe just get the lightest cheapet one you can, should be ankle length if you stand upright and let the axe hang from your hand, and mind you dont fall on the pick

Walking axe is a definite in Winter - who's to say you won't get lost or encounter conditions more difficult than you'd hoped/expected? Anyway, sounds like you are taking a safe and pragmatic approach. If you do want an axe, Trail magazine did a good review of walking axes recently and recommended a Grivel axe which was down as £50 but I actually saw in Cotswold Outdoors for about £45. You might even be able to get cheaper stuff on ebay but I'm not sure I'd want to buy something as safety critical second-hand.

Have fun, and if you find somewhere safe to practice self-arrest, do it! It's a good laugh and may save your life one day.

 

[jason01]

Ive carried a walking axe up quite a few Scottish and Welsh winter hills, Ive never been in a situation where I couldnt have done without it, most of its time has been spent on my back. In situations where Ive been most likely to fall i.e. scrambling I need my hands free to climb and theres no gentle snowy slope to self arrest on anyway just air . Certainly theres no harm in carrying one and its good to practice self arrest on a nice snow slope but based on where hes going and if its a one off it will most likely be an unneccessary £50 expense IMHO, ho harm inhiring one for a day tho.

Jason

 

[Wayne]

Jason brings up a good point. there is no point carrying a ice axe and leaving it attached to your back. Most accidents in the hills are not the dramatic falling 1000ft splat type. More a bouncy slip to doom. Know the terrian good nav skills and learn to carry and know how to use an axe for selt arrest. remember to keep the axe in the hand facing up the slope. The winter hills are a great play ground but should always be treated with respect.

 

[jason01]

You can be a long way from civilisation on Scottish hills, the most important consideration in my experience is the weather conditions, easy to underestimate how severe it can be if youre only used to Wales/Lakes/England. Expect it to change very quickly and be prepared for severe cold/wet on the tops. Gusts have been recorded on the Cairngorm plateu in excess of 150mph if I remember correctly.

Its normal to walk up from a valley where its mild misty and wet, sweating and getting soaked as you climb to then find yourself in extreme cold maybe a whiteout on the top and blowing a gale, very dangerous combination if youre soaked through and often a long long walk back to the pub, youre more likely to die of exposure after breaking an ankle or getting lost than from sliding off a mountain.

Jason

 

[mmcniven]

Hi
The Scottish hills in winter are not to be taken lightly no matter what height you are going to. I am a quilified mountain leader with quite a bit of experience in the cairngorms and can tell you that you are likely to experience ice at those heights at that time of year. What is more likely to happen on that hill is for the top layer of ice to thaw during the day and refreeze at night, this cycle of freeze thaw produces extremely hard ice conditions which can not be crossed safely with ice axe and cramons, steps can be cut but it is very time consuming, I was in the scottish hills today on a hill just north of glasgow and experienced conditions requiring an ice axe at elevations below that of the hill you are talking about.
Step cutting is very time consuming and requires a bit of practice to produce effective steps with the least amount of effort. I have lead parties up hard packed snow cutting steps and i can tell you that in high winds this is a very treacherous practice. High winds in the cairngorms are a killer i have set off from the valley only to encounter unforecast 70mph winds on the hill long before i was anywhere near the top. Walking over ice and hard packed snow in such conditions is very dangerous without the help of crampons. Arresting a fall with crampons on brings in its own set of dangers, you now have 24 points on your feet that will want to dig into the ice at anytime sending you into a tumble. I would strongly advise you to either gain experience using ice axe and crampons before your trip or else take along someone with the relavent experience to teach you on the day.
What you need to remember is that it is all very well sliding down the hill on your backside and arresting your fall, but it is unlikely this will occur on the hill, what is more likely is a trip and a head first slid. I would only practice self arrest with a helmet on. If you lose grip of your ice axe and it is still attached to your wrist you then have an ice pick flying around uncontrolled which can all to easily hit you on the head.
I am sure the cairgorm mountain rescue will back me up on this but the best advice i can give is to learn to use both ice axe and crampons it could save your life.
Only last year i had to deal with a winter hill walker on the same hill i was on today who had crossed an area of hard packed ice and snow on the way up without ice axe or crampons only to be unable to cross the same section on the way down.
Hope this doesnt put you off and if you require any advice please do not hesitate to ask.

Michael

 

[arctic hobo]

Wayne, not sure what you meant about crampons... they are of course useless in soft snow, and I do not think they are necessary. However better to have crampons than an ice axe - the axe will save you when you fall, but the crampons will stop you falling...
I have walked in Norway in much harsher conditions than you'll find on those Scottish hills, and never had to use an ice axe. That does not by any means mean they are a bad idea, but with care you should be quite safe on those hills. The snow will almost certainly be soft, which means you cannot use the pick for ice axe arrest, and you cannot use the adze to cut steps. You will only need the shaft, which means you'd be better off with a stick than a £50 ice axe.
In higher and steeper mountains I would consider it quite irresponsible to go out without both ice axe and crampons. However it looks from your map as though you won't be high or steep, and also that you're relatively close to civilisation should anything go wrong. And of course, if you're going out in conditions which require an ice axe and crampons, and you are unfamiliar, of course take some experienced friends, and don't overreach yourself. Most accidents happen when people think they're getting real good at this and start being cocky.
William Cecil Slingsby carried no crampons, and had a very basic axe - and he arguably achieved more than almost anyone alive today.

 

[george]

GB - it hit minus 4 last night at sea level, snow above 1000ft, ice at all levels.

I know the area you're going into very well and I wouldn't go anywhere near them this time of year without both an axe and crampons and the knowledge of how to use them.

Fine, they might stay strapped to the pack, but if you need them and you haven't got them I can assure you the rescue team are going to make sure you understand the risks you put them to to get you out! Don't take risks, take the appropriate kit and learn how to use it.

George

 

[Mikey P]

What you need to remember is that it is all very well sliding down the hill on your backside and arresting your fall, but it is unlikely this will occur on the hill, what is more likely is a trip and a head first slid. I would only practice self arrest with a helmet on. If you lose grip of your ice axe and it is still attached to your wrist you then have an ice pick flying around uncontrolled which can all to easily hit you on the head.
I am sure the cairgorm mountain rescue will back me up on this but the best advice i can give is to learn to use both ice axe and crampons it could save your life.

Brilliant advice and very informative! I've always tried to carry a mixture of walking poles (probably one of the finest ideas for time on the hills - why don't more people use these?) and walking axe, depending on conditions. Although you can't arrest with poles, they make you considerably more stable. My problem has always been uncertainty of at which point to lose a pole and start using a walking axe? I guess it's really based on experience but any top tips would be really useful.

 

[Wayne]

As always practise and then practise some more. Learn to self arrest in all positions with ans without a pack. Once mastered it brings a freat sense of confidense. However its no substitute for care.

AH i meant the crampons used without anti balling plates get clogged with snow. I have seen many people slip because they dont remember to keep their crampons clear.

You also have to remember that although you are comfortable and experienced in the mountain enviroment. Many readers here may not have your skills and advising people to leave safety kit at home maybe read out of context. We have a duty to promote best practise. Once people have mastered the basic skils they can then make informed choices about what riskd they are prepared to take.

 

[willie]

very well said wayne :biggthump

 

[willie]

Many readers here may not have your skills and advising people to leave safety kit at home maybe read out of context. We have a duty to promote best practise. Once people have mastered the basic skils they can then make informed choices about what riskd they are prepared to take.

very well said m8 :biggthump