Why Dont You?

[leon-1]

I have a shed load of theory and have practised shed loads of it, thus I have failed more times than succeeded, but success brings with it victory and with practice success becomes greater.

I have no preference on how I learn, book, computer or physically shown/instructed, however some of the little things can only be shown and not read about.

I have taught and also been taught a lot, so in the end I am both especially when I am trying something for the first time that I have come up with the theory on how to do.

Not a simple question to answer, but a good one Gary

 

[jakunen]

I have a shed load of theory and have practised shed loads of it, thus I have failed more times than succeeded, but success brings with it victory and with practice success becomes greater.

And that is the real mark of a true bushcrafter, or anyone in reality. Someone who ADMITS that they have messed up and LEARNT from it. Theory is great, in theory, but practice, even if you fail, is the real thing to try to achieve.

You can learn more from your failures than from your successes. If you get it right you learn a little, say 10%. If you fail, THEN get it right, you learn 50% because you know what NOT to do as well as what TO do.

 

[2blackcat]

Remember the programme. Got the **** theme song rattling around in my head now.

Have to place myself firmly in the theory camp. The usual lack of time excuse.
:?:

Steve

 

[Carcajou Garou]

It is not from success that the greatest lessons come from but from past failures that instill one to retry and eventualy overcome those failures. Theory is only a small dimension in the learning cycle.
just a thought

 

[woodrat]

well I would add something here but you've all done great . good on'ya mates!!!!!

 

[SquirrelBoy]

"No Pain - No Gain" springs to mind ! I think a few mistakes along the way really helps to get it right, cos knowing what NOT to do, is just as important as knowing WHAT to do :biggthump

Ive read loads of books, watched loads of programs and only a little of it goes in. Having attended courses and being shown, THEN having a GO myself is what it takes for me to get it firmly in my head.

 

[bambodoggy]

I agree in general.....bushcrafting is by it's very nature a practical activity and therefore the best way to learn is by doing things practically....HOWEVER....if there's nobody to show you and you just go out without a clue what you're doing you will end up just as "dead" as the person who's read all the books, knows the theory but has never tried it....

In my humble opinion....you do need both Theory and Practical in order to learn and progress.

If you give a total novice a knife and tell him to build a shelter, they may have a go but I suspect it will not be waterproof or well constructed (nobody is an expert the first time).....if you then tell him to go build some traps he may not know how/where to build and place them, if he catches a rabbit he may have no idea how to gutt it, skin it etc.....
I don't dispute that he will work it out evencially but in real life....he'd most likely die first.....these skills take time to learn and even more time if you have to dream them up first!

If the same person has read just one quality book....RM's Bushcraft, Mors Kochanski's Northern bushcraft....Lofty Wiseman's Survival handbook etc and is then treated the same way as above he will surely do better then the man with no theory in his mind.

Agreed the theory is not much use alone but imo nor is being blindly practical....it takes fairly equal (in importance anyway) measures of both.

And this is even more the case with beginners....

Well.....that's what I think anyway

 

[Stuart]

it would be incorrect to assume that people who post a lot in the Bushcraft UK forums spend all their time on the computer rather than actually getting out and doing stuff

Gary for example is the highest posting member on the site with 2,207 posts
but he clearly gets out and does a hell of a lot of bushcraft.

 

[Gary]

it would be incorrect to assume that people who post a lot in the Bushcraft UK forums spend all their time on the computer rather than actually getting out and doing stuff

Gary for example is the highest posting member on the site with 2,207 posts
but he clearly gets out and does a hell of a lot of bushcraft.

I am - cool - do I get a gold star to go with my badge!! :biggthump No cancel that I'd look like a McDonalds Manager :shock: Still I suppose its not surprising really as I have been a supporting member and contributor of this site since day 1! I can remember the days when it was only me, Tony and Phil on here!! (swing the lantern me'haerties!)

Being out all the time or on the pc/nose in book all the time are two extremes (although it helps having a business that requires pc access 24/7 ish) - IMO its finding a happy balance that works AND ITS THE QUALITY of what you do also, you can spend weeks in the woods and learn nothing or you can only spend a day and learn loads!

Question isnt NECESSARILY a matter of time its a matter of hands on experience against day dreaming.

 

[Adi007]

One thing that books and videos/DVD and the internet does is allow those that have a busy schedule the opportunity to dip into something when they can't actually get out and do it - this is why sports websites, outdoor related sites (like this one) and so many other sites and communities do so well. People have busy lives and need to balance jobs with home with family and friends - I like to feel that the people who come here during the day and night do so because they want to learn or participate in small sips when they can (keep their hand in so to speak) and I don't see anything wrong with it. Apart from the PC cost and the internet cost it's also free for them (I hate the idea of places that have their hand in people's pockets the whole time).

I'm a firm believer in each to his or her own - I find that while it's interesting to chew the fat over "who does what" and "I do more than you but less than her" it doesn't serve much beyond getting a generalized feel of things. There are no right or wrong answers (why should there be?). What I think is important in this day and age is that people ENJOY what they do, whether it's by hands on experience or day dreaming (which I see nothing wrong with either). Similarly over the issue of quality - who am I to say that if someone just goes out and mucks about is somehow doing less that those that go out "goal orientated" and focused of learning.

We can talk about time and quality and experience and any and every other possible criteria going, at the end of the day what matters is whether that person is happy. I like to believe that what bcUK does is serve as a pool from which everyone can drink from, no matter how much or little time they have or how much of little experience they have. We don't ask them for a pile of notes if they want to spend a weekend on here learning and welcome both the regulars and those that only drop in every so often in exactly the same way.

So whether you take your bushcraft in small sips or large gulps, if you're happy then that's just fine, if you're not, I hope you find a balance that does make you happy.

I tend to go from small sips to bigger gulps as time allows - I work outside of the "outdoors" and "leisure" industry and personally have no vested interest in how much of little time people spend in the outdoors of how much of little they learn or in what kit they have of what they do with their free time and money.

If, as a community, we encourage one new person to stop in their day for a few seconds and take a look at a tree, pick up a bit of wood and start whittling or just open the window and get a bit of fresh air, then we're doing well.

One other thing I'd add is this - Kids, don't stay indoors just to watch a program when you'd rather be doing something else - if nothing else, you yourself a cheap VCR and record the show for later viewing (that's the great thing of the youth of today, so much smarter than we were!).

 

[Adi007]

This is always an interesting question, and the answer will depend on the type of person you are. In management courses, you're taught that people prefer to learn in different ways; some are 'thinkers' and prefer to watch someone else, read instructions, etc. Some are 'doers' and just want to jump right in.

Also, people respond differently to stimuli, so some are biased towards aural, visual, or kinetic stimuli - meaning that some people prefer to listen to something (like books on tape), some prefer looking (at a video, or in-person demonstration), and some prefer a more hands-on approach. The best courses use all three methods to get the point across and reach all types of delegate.

It's another of those questions where there is no true answer, as it always depends on the personalities involved...

Very good point - it's an approach that is still underused in learning even now.

Can you imagine it though, a potential customer phoning up an "outdoor" training company at random and asking:

"Oh, and by the way, is your training geared to towards students that respond to auditory, visual or kinetic learning or do you cater across the board?" :rolmao: :rolmao: :rolmao:

 

[Gary]

What I think is important in this day and age is that people ENJOY what they do, whether it's by hands on experience or day dreaming (which I see nothing wrong with either).

We can talk about time and quality and experience and any and every other possible criteria going, at the end of the day what matters is whether that person is happy.

So whether you take your bushcraft in small sips or large gulps, if you're happy then that's just fine, if you're not, I hope you find a balance that does make you happy.

If, as a community, we encourage one new person to stop in their day for a few seconds and take a look at a tree, pick up a bit of wood and start whittling or just open the window and get a bit of fresh air, then we're doing well.

One other thing I'd add is this - Kids, don't stay indoors just to watch a program when you'd rather be doing something else - if nothing else, you yourself a cheap VCR and record the show for later viewing (that's the great thing of the youth of today, so much smarter than we were!).

Adi have you been taking wisedom pills again? Some fine words and sentiment there.

 

[bothyman]

If, as a community, we encourage one new person to stop in their day for a few seconds and take a look at a tree, pick up a bit of wood and start whittling or just open the window and get a bit of fresh air, then we're doing well.

Adi, I like that :biggthump
I am always surprised when people ask if they can go out for a walk with us(we have a B&B) how little they see of their surroundings.
I spend most of my time on my own, so to me it is just another day, but when I start pointing out, Deer, Animal tracks, Fish in the River, and such like things, they always seem amazed at what is around them and wonder how I can walk so fast and see so much without tripping over.I think a lot of people are used to just looking in the direction they are walking and not around them, maybe its a city thing where people even seem to be frightened to look at each other.
One thing I will always remember was being out with a couple and one said how nice the heather looked, without thinking I took my knife out of my pocket and offered it to them so they could cut a sprig, I will never forget the look of horror on the womans face when she saw the knife, it was then I realised that some people look on a knife as a weapon and not a tool.
Its when things like that happen I realise how lucky I am,
and you don't have to go on a Course to see a lot of this stuff people just need to go out and look what is around them and its all free.



Us = The dog and I

MickT

 

[Buckshot]

Brilliantly put Adi :biggthump

 

[Gary]

If, as a community, we encourage one new person to stop in their day for a few seconds and take a look at a tree, pick up a bit of wood and start whittling or just open the window and get a bit of fresh air, then we're doing well.

Last thought - I guess in away this forum could be a Y Dont U in its own way then!

Anyway thanks to all the guys who responded, your honesty was a breath of fresh air. And I hope this has made a few people think about the balance of their knowledge and skills, sometimes this is the hardest thing, but as Adi says - whatever makes you happy!

 

[Abbe Osram]

The supreme misfortune is when theory outstrips performance.
Leonardo da Vinci

The times we live in is all about theory! Here in Sweden you even have to go to school for two years to become a cleaning lady. The days of old people working at home and showing the young how to work on the field or working with your hands are gone in the most families. Who is today baking bread? Everything is instant. You buy the stuff you need to have but you don’t make them. Growing up in such an environment where theory outstrips performance creates new individuals with new values. The "Image" becomes more important than reality. Why should that work? Humans only do things, which is of some benefit to them. So reading about winter bush craft, reading about emergency shelters and the famous quinzee gives me a good feeling. I know what to do; I am not so stupid as the guy who died here last week. I am in charge! I am the man! Abbe the hero of the forest! I feel great on my sofa in the warm with my collection of winter bushcraft books.

The awakening of reality!

I choose to go out, still the hero on the inside.
The temperature drops to minus 25 Celsius, everything becomes a pain. I shuffle and shuffle snow to get under the ground..... building a shelter, dripping wet of snow and sweat, I can see that I don’t make it, may hands start to hurt like hell, panic sets in. The dam quinzy is not growing, I have no strength more but I am still shuffling. Getting into the dam thing, I noticed its much to small…. I get the feeling I shuffled my own grave. The cosy, romantic feeling died long time ago still I have to survive the night and stay put in my sleeping bag. I manage through the night, no sleep and a lot of pain in my hands and feet. In the morning I got a fire going but the cold in the bones doesn’t leave me. "Why do I do this to me"? comes as a thought. Why am I so stupid with 42 years to sleep here in the snow in minus 25 Celsius? Going home the hero on my inside died a silent death. I faced myself and kissed reality. Learned a lot about nature and myself. Got a bit quit for a week thinking about life and myself. ........But today comes a new book..... about "Fire" and I already feel much warmer.

And then next week I will go out again facing reality.

cheers
Abbe

 

[Kim]

Too true Abbe, so often the romantic ideas that are constructed around what we think we know, are experienced practically in a very different way.

 

[Stuart]

Nicely put abbe, Very nicly put :biggthump

 

[Doc]

Nice one Abbe.

Some things you cannot learn from books. And some things you can. For example, there are very good bow drill instructions in Ray's books and videos. It does asssume you can identify a sycamore or willow, but is otherwise very clear.
Without any other instruction, my first attempt, although unsuccessful, was encouraging (...look at all that smoke....) and I achieved success later that day.

On the other hand, some activities requiring very fine motor control can only be achieved through practice. I once bought a book on learning morse - waste of time. The only way is through practice and lots of it. Even now I can only do about 15 words per minute. Some operators are twice as fast.

In medicine we have a saying 'See one, do one, teach one' - not good practice but I must admit this is often how practical procedures are learned. But there is a big difference between being able to do it once, and being able to do it even under adverse conditions. As a student I succesfully put in a few intravenous cannulae. I ticked it off as 'something I know how to do.' But it was only after a few months as a house surgeon that I really felt confident to get it in first time, even on a shocked patient with awful veins.

At this time of year, when its dark in the evenings, I have a definite tendency to read more than do. Things improve in the spring.

 

[TheViking]

Gary, it's a good question. I clearly don't get out as much as I would like too, but there's this simple reason that I have exams and graduation very very soon. But the last few days I've been skiing in Austria. ):