Why are Duke of Ed people always lost?

[petrochemicals]

I' like to start of by slating all DofE people.

I think the DofE would benefit from taking a look at scouting practice. Most DofE expeditions seem a bit like cattle drives. They have to walk they have to get to somewhere else, they are young kids with heavy packs venturing outside there comfort zone, with the activities of nothing at all, with teeny angsts (big up), people who they don't nececerrily get on with. They are always far happier on a settled camp site with adults around than when off walking. If they had a rough camp + fire where they could do a bit of something or other they may like it better. They could go for a night on the hills if they wanted with lighter packs, whilst still having familiar surroundings, and being able to find there way home if they need.

 

[mrcharly]

I don't think you know anything about DofE, petro

You seem to be talking about Bronze badge activities. That's just the lowest level.

 

[Limaed]

I' like to start of by slating all DofE people.

I think the DofE would benefit from taking a look at scouting practice. Most DofE expeditions seem a bit like cattle drives. They have to walk they have to get to somewhere else, they are young kids with heavy packs venturing outside there comfort zone, with the activities of nothing at all, with teeny angsts (big up), people who they don't nececerrily get on with. They are always far happier on a settled camp site with adults around than when off walking. If they had a rough camp + fire where they could do a bit of something or other they may like it better. They could go for a night on the hills if they wanted with lighter packs, whilst still having familiar surroundings, and being able to find there way home if they need.

I have to disagree, when I was a youth the most exciting bit about the scheme was the expedition and it wouldn't be an expedition if the youngsters we're in a fixed camp. Additionally there's a huge benefit to an individuals personal development from making a self propelled journey, hence the reason why the military invest so much money in Adventurous Training and expeditions.

If adults/ leaders / parents have continuous supervision then the equation is changed and the decision making process removed from the participants. Young people need direction but also space to make mistakes in a safe (but not necessarily a comfortable) environment. Training is very important, as a Mountain Rescue Team Leader I train my guys to be self sufficient and to carry out rescues in hostile conditions. We do this by gradual incremented training, assessment at key stages and ultimately by allowing the guys to go out unsupervised by more experienced personnel. This is no different from D of E really albeit on a less serious scale.

 

[petrochemicals]

Charlie limelad

At 15 I could do most of the basic suff I can now, that being maps and compass, tent, fire cooking on a stove, the aluminium windshield I have I bought when I was about 10 along with a gas stove. Now that was mostly through myself/parents books and scouts. A lot of the contingent of the DofE are kids who are wet behind the ears. They look miserable and are a bunch of chancers, that's why they are lost. Most elder scouts would not have a problem doing the gold DofE from a start, or the group of air cadets I saw last year, but you can always tell the DofE, when off the camp site they always look out of there depth and lost.

 

[nic a char]

Good points

 

[nic a char]

"You can immediately ID a Duke of Ed group as 1) they look like a DoE group and 2) their first words are "Where are we?"
= = just like the chookies, really...

 

[cave_dweller]

I think they do it as some sort of extracurricular thing to put down on their uni applications as playing on your xbox isn't acceptable, and the idea always seems to come from their parents.

Probabaly true for many, but some schools here in Wales make it an 'option' for 6th form pupils. I found this out recently while my son was sorting out his GCSE options. You can be very sure that the supervisors are going to be asked some searching questions before he embarks on it. I have some experience of the (lack of) supervision in some cases, and it's frightening.

 

[boatman]

Ah yes more people who shouldn't be outside, unlike US of course. Getting wet, getting lost all part of growing up, or should be. Agree with the ridiculously heavy packs being a problem. I never understand why the Ten Tors participants have to be weighed down so much. Up to one third of the person's body weight seems acceptable.

 

[cave_dweller]

Ah yes more people who shouldn't be outside, unlike US of course. Getting wet, getting lost all part of growing up, or should be. Agree with the ridiculously heavy packs being a problem. I never understand why the Ten Tors participants have to be weighed down so much. Up to one third of the person's body weight seems acceptable.

I'm all for them being outside, but not under the supervision of people who know less than some of the kids!

 

[Twodogs]

Below me as i read this is a advert for D of E expeditions

I was involved with different types of cadet forces for years , did loads of expeditions as a cadet and staff ,,including ten tors ...

Surly as a youth getting lost is part of it ,,map reading after all is a practical skill mostly learnt at a location known to the cadet getting the lessons and then not normally a lot of time for practice .

you have to give them chance to learn and getting lost is part of it .. as long as there are staff at check points and some shadowing its all good ..

Everyone gets lost ...

Cliff

 

[Angry Pirate]

For the people busy here slagging off DoE leaders, I suggest you get out and do some teaching to young people. Scout groups, DoE are always looking for people with skills to offer.

If you aren't prepared to do that (and face the challenge of engaging a group of young people), I politely request you pipe down.

Hear hear. I rarely stick my head above the parapet on these sorts of discussions but I think that some of the points here, which whilst probably true, are not representative of the d of e organisation as a whole.

I run the award for my school and have been doing so for ten years. My leader team (all volunteers from the local community) hold the relevant outdoor qualifications, either BEL or ML. A good number are my ex-gold candidates who a passing on their skill and enthusiasm to a new group. Many of these leaders have been doing this as long or even longer than I and are very switched on. I appreciate that some supervisors are not so proactive. I have worked with one of two myself.
I have just returned from a bronze expeds and we spent the first day teaching, mentoring and assessing nav skills. This followed on from training sessions in the classroom. We were on foot with the kids all day on Saturday and ran a combination of static checkpoints (in cars) and mobile teams on Sunday. If I'm sitting down on an expedition I've not planned it properly.
The kids can navigate when they try but as said before they tend to switch off as many are just not used to concentrating on anything for extended periods. Some just can't be bothered either. A good percentage do a great job though and really enjoy the challenge.
We do see a lot of cv garnishers who tend to drop out after bronze but the majority progress through to gold. Along the way their nav skills progress, they get older and stronger, they learn from their mistakes and bring far less stuff (one girl at the weekend appeared with an 18 kg rucksack!)
They may be miserable and tired on the day but many have never carried kit before and they are often amassing blisters but once the dust settles and they've had a bath and a night back in their own beds they look back with pride and achievement and do with hindsight enjoy it.
I'm out this weekend with golds and from drop off on Friday till pick up on Sunday we are all foot mobile. They may get lost but I have enough trust in their skill and resilience and enough confidence in my leaders that if anyone gets lost they will right themselves again.
The adage I firmly believe is the some people learn through instruction, some people learn through observation, some just have to p**s on the electric fence for themselves. This sums up d of e candidates and young people in general perfectly.

 

[Stingray]

Hear hear. I rarely stick my head above the parapet on these sorts of discussions but I think that some of the points here, which whilst probably true, are not representative of the d of e organisation as a whole.

I run the award for my school and have been doing so for ten years. My leader team (all volunteers from the local community) hold the relevant outdoor qualifications, either BEL or ML. A good number are my ex-gold candidates who a passing on their skill and enthusiasm to a new group. Many of these leaders have been doing this as long or even longer than I and are very switched on. I appreciate that some supervisors are not so proactive. I have worked with one of two myself.
I have just returned from a bronze expeds and we spent the first day teaching, mentoring and assessing nav skills. This followed on from training sessions in the classroom. We were on foot with the kids all day on Saturday and ran a combination of static checkpoints (in cars) and mobile teams on Sunday. If I'm sitting down on an expedition I've not planned it properly.
The kids can navigate when they try but as said before they tend to switch off as many are just not used to concentrating on anything for extended periods. Some just can't be bothered either. A good percentage do a great job though and really enjoy the challenge.
We do see a lot of cv garnishers who tend to drop out after bronze but the majority progress through to gold. Along the way their nav skills progress, they get older and stronger, they learn from their mistakes and bring far less stuff (one girl at the weekend appeared with an 18 kg rucksack!)
They may be miserable and tired on the day but many have never carried kit before and they are often amassing blisters but once the dust settles and they've had a bath and a night back in their own beds they look back with pride and achievement and do with hindsight enjoy it.
I'm out this weekend with golds and from drop off on Friday till pick up on Sunday we are all foot mobile. They may get lost but I have enough trust in their skill and resilience and enough confidence in my leaders that if anyone gets lost they will right themselves again.
The adage I firmly believe is the some people learn through instruction, some people learn through observation, some just have to p**s on the electric fence for themselves. This sums up d of e candidates and young people in general perfectly.

Quite true.3 of my 4 children have done the Dof E to gold.My youngest is off to South America in the summer as a direct result of her wanderings.The others still go out with their friends for very long map guided walks basically to get muddy,have a laugh and get away from the internet for a day or two.I've been there when they first came back from wandering around the fields with a backpack,fending off cows and rabid sheep.They fill the car with their friends,mud and rucksacks and endless happy chatter.Good on 'em and ******** to people that think it's not a good thing.

 

[Bowlander]

A group moved through the farm here last year - completely off footpath, they knocked down 2 stone wall gaps and trampled straight across hay meadows.

 

[Angry Pirate]

A group moved through the farm here last year - completely off footpath, they knocked down 2 stone wall gaps and trampled straight across hay meadows.

If you know the group, complain to them. If you don't, then contact the relevant panel (the area panel details are on the d of e webpage) and complain to them, they will have a record of expeditions in the area on that date and should be able to trace the group. This sort of thing suggests poor training and should be highlighted. The country code is an important part of training.
I have had many conversations with local farmers who are sick of d of e due to an inconsiderate minority. This does us no favours and will just jeopardise future expeditions.

 

[British Red]

<snip> I have had many conversations with local farmers who are sick of d of e <snip>

Which says there is something very wrong with the scheme if "many conversations" with "local" people indicate they are sick of it.

It should not be the job of locals to police the scheme and report the "many" problems from the "inconsiderate minority", but the schemes organisers. Particularly if the scheme is causing damage and financial loss as in Bowlands case.

I'm all in favour of getting youngsters out there - but not if it costs hardworking people cash to repair damage and write off crops.

 

[Tommyd345]

I did DofE silver a couple of years back. It was great fun, I thought it was too MUCH molle-coddle. Having to check in at check points, no knives, only trangeir used for cooking. Yes it was fun, but schools now a days are so health and safety conscious it hurts. I'm an outdoor activity instructor, and we run shed loads of stuff (ropes, motorsports, bushcraft ect) the amount of groups that come in, and the teachers get all worried about a little bit of mud, or they fall over, get a little bump and it's straight to first aid to get an ice pack. I personally think that is ridiculous, when I was a kid (and I'm sure it's the same for a lot of you) if you fall over, you get back up and carry on. Mud is viewed as a topping - much like ketchup. You get where I'm coming from.
If I wasn't working 10 hours a day with kids I would be volunteering at scouts/DofE because being able to go wild, get lost, cut yourself, figure out the pointy part of the knife, helps build you as a person!
Apologies for off topic and slight rambling, but it's what I'm thinking!

 

[OldJimbo]

My kids have done DoE. I've supervised on one expedition. Two of my kids were the ones asked to do the navigation as the others couldn't be bothered. According to them:

1) Most of the group just talk and don't look where they are going.

2) While talking they don't stop at any track, fence, gate etc to check which way to go (and ignore the navigator).

3) The navigator keeps falling behind because they are always stopping to look at the map. That leads to the rest of the group just walking with no idea where they are going.

My grand-niece did the awards and had a great time, so congrats to instructors/supervisors! I can certainly see where managing the participants is a task.

Over here my grand-son is in cadets and swim club, and so is with other motivated people. I sure support the leaders in anything they want, because I realize the task even with leading motivated people.

 

[cranmere]

I've walked any number of them off Dartmoor. The funniest was a group which I encountered repeatedly. I was letterboxing so perambulating around a fairly small (couple of square miles) area. Periodically I would trot over a hill and find the same bunch holding their map in front of them. I would ask them where they wanted to be, show them on their map where they were, show them how to take a compass bearing and set them off. Half a hour later I would find them again, lost again, in entirely the wrong place.

 

[Bowlander]

If you know the group, complain to them. If you don't, then contact the relevant panel (the area panel details are on the d of e webpage) and complain to them, they will have a record of expeditions in the area on that date and should be able to trace the group. This sort of thing suggests poor training and should be highlighted. The country code is an important part of training.
I have had many conversations with local farmers who are sick of d of e due to an inconsiderate minority. This does us no favours and will just jeopardise future expeditions.

I think the farmer caught up with one of the group leaders and tore a strip off him.

We also get scout groups, schools etc turning up without informing anybody because they've always done that. I ask any I see to contact the Estate Office with risk assessment/insurance details. If an incident occured without permission, I'm not sure how the landowner/farmer would stand.

 

[cranmere]

I think what we are seeing is the learning process. Doing it in the field is different from learning in a classroom and it takes practice and a fair bit of getting lost/misplaced along the way. That's one of the reasons why I will take the time to show them where they are and how to get to where they want to be if I encounter groups who are clearly having difficulty.