When is it ok to buy cheap?

[Janne]

The ’changing the car every 3 years’ is a bad example, as the car is not scrapped but sold and driven by a succession of people untill scrapped, maybe 15-20 years later.

But, buy a cheap car, say a chinese one, and you have achieve this: car made in a country that does not care about environment, from parts made by companies that do not care about the environment, or what rubbish they mix into the plastics, colours, leather.

Made to last fewer years.

So what is better for the environment?

 

[KenThis]

"I believe the person who buys a new car every 3 years or redecorates the house every year or gets the newest iPhone or buys unecessary clothes every week is the problem.
Built-in obsolescence is the problem, and the fact that the majority of people tend to accept it. The foundation on which the temple of capitalism is based."

Surely the newer the car, or phone the more likely they are to be eco friendly and in the case of the car they should be less polluting, I agree that there is built in obsolence in virtually everything, (especially the Iphone) and to some extent there has to be otherwise whole industries would fail, but we also have to accept that economies of scale have reduced the price of some goods to an affordable level, take modern TV's for instance and other white goods, also the lengths of warranty on some goods now testify to their quality. Its just a pity that we don't make these goods ourselves like we used to do, but in relation to the costs of manufacture in the third world as well as in eastern Europe we just cannot compete. We are a consumer society and in many aspects have lost the skills to make the things we need and want,

To some extent we are supporting the third world by importing the cheap goods, but also probably not improving their working conditions much, so its I suppose a case of we are damned if we do and damned if we don't,

Unfortunately that is not always the case. Even if it were, often any potential 'less polluting' ecological benefits in the long run are more than offset by the ecological costs in creating the new item and disposing of the old.

As for economies of scale and affordability in my view that is sometimes an issue. White goods/TVs are cheaper now than they've ever been in real terms. However they are often so cheap that it is no longer cost effective to repair them if they do break. Also most items nowadays are not designed in order to have parts replaced/repaired - the iPhone battery for example. As I said built-in obsolescence. As you point out otherwise 'whole industries' would fail, but I see this as a direct consequence of the type of capitalism the West worships. There must be more customers next year than this year, so that our 'economy' grows. This is the problem as I see it, the inexorable need for growth, more, better....

Also as for importing cheap goods, it's not so much helping those in the developing world as helping the shareholders of the giant multinational corporations. In our global economy they are able to prey on poorer nations, who often invite them in with fantastic tax breaks. Not only do they save substantial wage costs but they often don't have to worry about worker safety or ecological cleanup.

Just look at the amounts spent on advertising / marketing to convince the public not only of all the things they 'need' but also that they'll be a failure if they don't have all the things.

 

[Fadcode]

The ’changing the car every 3 years’ is a bad example, as the car is not scrapped but sold and driven by a succession of people untill scrapped.

But, buy a cheap car, say a chinese one, and you have achieve this: car made in a country that does not care about environment, from parts made by companies that do not care about the environment, or what rubbish they mix into the plastics, colours, leather.

I think we have to be careful about labelling everything from China as crap..............we get our modern trains from China, they also build Buses, Coaches etc, all built to a high standard, they even build Range Rovers, admittedly not everything is too a high standard, and there are companies making fake goods etc, but sometimes these are the factories building the proper article, and do it as a sideline, and unfortunately most of the stuff we buy, whether we like it or not is made in China, I do draw the line at some of the goods on Ebay, which actually state they are made in the Uk, until you scroll down and see the address in China, or a lot of goods coming from Germany but are really from China.......................ref the Chinese car, I am not sure they are on sale here in the Uk. as yet, but there are plans to introduce some for under £10k, apparently they hope to sell about 2 million a year in europe, which is more than the total output of cars made in the UK . they are probably aiming the market at eastern Europe Turkey etc,Hopefully......................

 

[KenThis]

The ’changing the car every 3 years’ is a bad example, as the car is not scrapped but sold and driven by a succession of people untill scrapped.

But, buy a cheap car, say a chinese one, and you have achieve this: car made in a country that does not care about environment, from parts made by companies that do not care about the environment, or what rubbish they mix into the plastics, colours, leather.

I think you're wrong Janne, the 'changing a car every 3 years' is the classic example of ecological misdirection. The environmental costs involved in driving a car come mainly from the cars manufacture and not in running a car. In fact I'm sure I read that the average car must be driven for 20+ years to create as much environmental damage as it's initial creation. For some of the new wave of electric cars the environmental costs far outweigh the life of the vehicle. This is because the cars are often made with exotic materials that are not easily recycled but have to be made. Also please remember that most electricity is still created by burning fossil fuels. Also things like the batteries have a very limited life and are actually quite damaging ecologically.
This is all before you consider that due to the pyramid effect all the new vehicles at the top mean that cars at the bottom do end up getting scrapped even if they are still viable. So more cars end up getting scrapped than would do if people drove cars for longer.

As for you anti-Chinese ranting, I really wish you wouldn't do it.
It seems a particular bugbear of yours and frankly it's xenophobic.
As has been pointed out to you a number of times, China is able to make things to an excellent quality if and when needed. When companies out-source manufacturing to China they are able to insist on any level of quality wanted. However it doesn't make sense to worry about quality control when you can make such quantities at a fraction of domestic costs. The company doesn't care if the customer complains about a fault, they can send out replacements and still make more profit than if they had made to a higher quality originally.

 

[Fadcode]

Unfortunately that is not always the case. Even if it were, often any potential 'less polluting' ecological benefits in the long run are more than offset by the ecological costs in creating the new item and disposing of the old.

As for economies of scale and affordability in my view that is sometimes an issue. White goods/TVs are cheaper now than they've ever been in real terms. However they are often so cheap that it is no longer cost effective to repair them if they do break. Also most items nowadays are not designed in order to have parts replaced/repaired - the iPhone battery for example. As I said built-in obsolescence. As you point out otherwise 'whole industries' would fail, but I see this as a direct consequence of the type of capitalism the West worships. There must be more customers next year than this year, so that our 'economy' grows. This is the problem as I see it, the inexorable need for growth, more, better....

Also as for importing cheap goods, it's not so much helping those in the developing world as helping the shareholders of the giant multinational corporations. In our global economy they are able to prey on poorer nations, who often invite them in with fantastic tax breaks. Not only do they save substantial wage costs but they often don't have to worry about worker safety or ecological cleanup.

Just look at the amounts spent on advertising / marketing to convince the public not only of all the things they 'need' but also that they'll be a failure if they don't have all the things.

i agree with most of what you say Ken, it shows how gullible we are, especially with the likes of the I phone, the fact that is probably cheaper to buy a new fridge or washing machine than to get it repaired, also reflects the extent of the manufacturers aims, to sell sell sell, and agreed they don't even think of what happens to the old ones, which don't have many recyclable parts, cars are a different matter nowadays and are about 90% recyclable, or used for spare parts etc.

One thing that may change this is the fact that China have stopped importing a lot of our waste plastics, as well as other waste, so we have now to deal with it. As for the giant multinationals preying on the poorer nations, I think this is more down to corruption by the leaders of these countries, than the intent of the multinationals, we only have to look at some of our biggest firms to realise that they have basically gone, or been taken over by companies we have never heard of, the saddest thing about our massive import debt is that the government don't seem too bothered about it, but they do collect quite a lot of duty, vat etc.

Companies have to grow each year otherwise their share prices go down, they are targets for take-overs etc, look at the large high street shops that have vanished because basically they cant grow any bigger and in fact start losing market share, eventually go bankrupt, even Tesco now have started to cut back and shelve plans for growth, because of competition and loss of market share, everyone wants a bigger slice of the cake but the cake isn't getting any bigger, and there are more after their share, another good example of this is in the States, where whole shopping malls are empty because the firms cant generate the profits to stay there.Look at our high streets,all charity shops, and phone shops.the Banks have gone, town centres are dying even the large out of town shopping centres are starting to recede, Most cannot compete with the Internet , why mainly because the customer has a better choice and in most cases can get the goods cheaper.

 

[Janne]

Xenophobic? Well, I have never been accused of being PC, so why not?
But, Xenophobic means ‘afraid of China’ but I am not aftraid of that country. I just dislike of most that is happening there.

Eurofil, yes, by birth. Anglofil yes, by choice. And proud of both!

Just tell me one item made in China that is made to a higher standard than a similar item made in N.America or Europe!
And made by workers receiving decent wages, decent working week, in a decent working environment. In factories that are envionmentally friendly ( or as little polluting as technically possible, using materials that are free from banned agents and toxins.

China is a huge pollutant of our World, and getting worse and worse. It allows total devastation of nature, like rivers, flood plains, forests.

Another aspect in buying ’local’ is that it keeps our workforce working, feeling useful and out of mischief.

 

[Fadcode]

its not only stuff coming in from China that is cheap,I just purchased a copy of Microsoft Office for £2.78, 100% legit, I had to download it from the Microsoft Site which then validated it as genuine with the key I was given.........you cant beat that.

 

[Janne]

Good buy, an excellent program.

Many has tried to better it, few, if any has succeeded!

But, I am sure you can buy a Chinese knock-off for much less.

The spell check will be a bit funny, and you will have no wallanty or upglades, but hey, it was cheap!
Numba one!

.

 

[santaman2000]

......Just tell me one item made in China that is made to a higher standard than a similar item made in N.America or Europe!.......

Hand hammered woks

 

[Andy T]

These days to cook on i either use an optimus 8r or a svea 123r. Both around 40 years old and still going strong performing as good as ever. Both cost me around the £35 mark. Around a third of the price of whisperlite and dragon fly stoves. With minimum t.l.c. there's a good chance these stoves will still be going strong for a good many more years yet. I'm not sure that will be the case for the more expensive modern stoves.

 

[CLEM]

I dunno about the cheaper Lidl n Aldi outdoors kit but I can give a big thumbs up to Lidl's own Slow Gin, oh yes bloody marvellous stuff to sip round a camp fire. Made me fall over though, luckily not in to the fire lol

 

[Erbswurst]

(The Greenland shirt is the equivalent to the ÖBH Feldhemd, Räven Jacket equivalent to ÖBH Jacke that's different)

 

[nitrambur]

Xenophobic means ‘afraid of China’ but I am not aftraid of that country.

That's Sinophobia, Xenophobia is the fear of the foreign/strange

 

[KenThis]

Xenophobic? Well, I have never been accused of being PC, so why not?
But, Xenophobic means ‘afraid of China’ but I am not aftraid of that country. I just dislike of most that is happening there.

Eurofil, yes, by birth. Anglofil yes, by choice. And proud of both!

Just tell me one item made in China that is made to a higher standard than a similar item made in N.America or Europe!
And made by workers receiving decent wages, decent working week, in a decent working environment. In factories that are envionmentally friendly ( or as little polluting as technically possible, using materials that are free from banned agents and toxins.

China is a huge pollutant of our World, and getting worse and worse. It allows total devastation of nature, like rivers, flood plains, forests.

Another aspect in buying ’local’ is that it keeps our workforce working, feeling useful and out of mischief.

Xenophobic is not just an irrational fear it can also mean irrational dislike or hatred...

I don't want to keep having to disagree with you Janne because for the most part I enjoy your posts and respect your knowledge but I believe you're wrong about China.

First of all as I have already pointed out China manufactures for the rest of the world, it is for those countries to address quality not China. It would make no sense for China to create high quality goods domestically as there wouldn't be a market. If internationally pressure was put on to raise standards it would obviously happen but there's no financial incentive.
I find the idea of America being a paragon of worker rights/safety/environment frankly risible. Obviously it's all relative and China's record is not as good but some things to remember.
China has been very slow to the 'industrial' revolution, something that the West has exploited for nearly 200 years. I find it hypocritical of the West who are so slow in changing their bad environmental habits which historically have been most to blame for things like global warming, condemning countries who are still developing. As was pointed out we had no problem shipping our waste plastics to China, instead of dealing with them ourselves, how we now complain that our waste has polluted their country is plain wrong.
China is still majority communist ruled. This is a completely different mindset to western democracy. I'm no apologist for communism but as I understand it there is far greater emphasis on collective good rather than individual rights, of course safety concerns will be lower.
Copyright is a necessary component of capitalism not communism, is it therefore any wonder that China who have been trying to catch up with the rest of the world since Victorian times is going to ignore it.
China might not be innovative, a natural strength of capitalism, but they are technologically the equal of a lot of Western countries. Mainly because they can and do copy the West. They can make iPhones / computers / cars etc. and it won't be long before they overtake the West. They already have more Supercomputers than America, they have a space program, nuclear program etc. They have more graduates each year than America or Europe, and they send their brightest to learn in Western universities.

Before we criticise other countries we should look at our own past. We've exploited our natural environment for the last 150 years and continue to do so, we even go to war with countries in order to exploit their natural resources. The West is built on exploitation, pointing blame at countries trying to catch up, is disingenuous bigotry.

 

[Wayne]

Whilst this is interesting we are now straying very close to crossing the forum rules on politics.

Good to see so far that the conversation has remained polite.

However if we cannot leave the policitics aside then I will close the thread.

 

[Janne]

True, true.

It is not a quality problem, more a design problem, but I get the feeling that a lot of the more expensive stuff is getting more fragile, or brittle, because it is designed with weight in mind. Using more plastics.
This I have had a problem with in winter. Tent and backpack components broke.
Footwear for me is the most vital piece of equipment. Cost irrelevant.

More and more difficult to find.

 

[Janne]

(The Greenland shirt is the equivalent to the ÖBH Feldhemd, Räven Jacket equivalent to ÖBH Jacke that's different)

Yes, my bad!

I assume the F. Greenland jacket? Yes, expensive. The old one, mine is from -77 or -78, are truly exeptional but I had to stop wearing mine about 10 years ago.
Not sure why it suddenly shrank around my Stomach.....

I looked on a new one, as I am increasing my bushcrafting now when our house is finished, but I did not like the cut.

Got a nice jacket from Norrøna instead. Not cheap either, but better cut and design.

Their trousers are fantastic too.
I can highly recommend them, in the ‘expensive’ bracket. You get what you pay for, not an internationally overhyped brand.

 

[KenThis]

Apologies for my tirade. Obviously just my biased viewpoint. No excuse but I sometimes get caught up in 'black and white' thinking, a symptom of the autism. On one level I do understand that things are more nuanced but when things make sense to me regarding perceived injustice, I really struggle with wanting to explain it to others as I see it. I also take it personally when I'm unable to convince someone of my viewpoint. I take it that I'm not explaining myself properly rather than someone is coming to it with different but equally valid life experience.
What I mean is that I have to remember that my beliefs are subjective to me and not some universally recognised and self evident truth, no matter how much faith I put in them.

 

[Janne]

No apology from any of us needed!
Some of my views are (as mentioned) very non PC. We must be allowed Free Thinking, but maybe I should try to curb my urge of Free Ranting, yes?

Discussion is good. We learn.

 

[Wayne]

I tend to buy the very best I can afford and try to buy it once. I use my kit a lot and so it has to be durable and functional.

I have found with a lot of kit in the backpacking and ultra light movement that the prices as stupidly high and the longevity of the product is minimal. Tent ground sheets that won’t survive a single encounter with anything less than a bowling green lawn.

Polyester fleece tops manufactured in Vietnam selling for £170. When the manufacturer is and
Material costs are tiny. I refuse to purchase these items as I feel I’m being ripped off.

We all pay lip service to green credentials but almost every activity we do is hugely damaging to the environment. Titanium cooking pots. Ultra lightweight this and that. Eat a few less pies and you will save money and be healthier.

We commute to work because we want to live in nice towns, we drive to the supermarket and we take unnecessary flights each year.