whats the fascination with weight?

[petrochemicals]

well PDA thats you, some feed up before setting out and carry low food weight, little fuel, backpacks that can only manage a few kilogrammes. Some carry only 2500 kcal a day, nothing like the 5000kcal required for phycical activity in anything but hot sunny weather. 5000kcal in nuts in still roughly 800g, in beef jerky is 1200g i believe, so youve got to carry at least 1kg a day, but if your only going for two days, ultra light kit isn't going to factor that much as your bag may only weigh 7kg anyway. Some ultralight packers take 500g a day of bad food , gorge when they get back to civilisation, hardly outdoor living.

Not a fan of ratpacks and that sort of thing, I dont really believe they feed you. proetin in the day and fat at night, and sugar as a pick me up. Carbohydrate is difficult to process, and will not replace proetin lost through physical exertions. Fat makes you sleepy. Sugar is easily processed but quickly used. Carbohydrate is also in bulkier heavier forms than proetin.

But thats going into food inparticular, sometimes lighter equipment makes it harder work, and not leisure. The Sass dont do things difficultly unless they have to.

 

[Lister]

Look at it this way, the more you carry on your back earlier in your life, the less explaining you have to do for the belly you get later in live...."but it's straightening my spine dearest"

 

[Big Stu 12]

In my youth I was an avid long distance walker and over the years I have literally walked the Length (Lands End to the Scottish Border) and breadth (North Sea to Irish Sea) of England plus loads more of Britain, lots of Europe and various bits of Africa and SE Asia.
I once walked 30 miles in one day with 45lbs on my back - for fun!
If you carry more weight you get fitter to manage it.
These daysmy long distance walking is over due to probs caused by my dislocating my knee badly in my 20s - the fib was out of position for years thanks to our wonderful NHS failing to pick up the fact it had not repositioned itself well....
My knees are now in poor shape and I have various back issues (some may perhaps even be related to carrying heavy loads but more likely to my breaking my neck in my teens) and a6 mile hike is plenty for me these days.
When I go into the woods I may trot 1/2 mile or so from my van so weight is not an issue ... I can always do 2 or 3 trips if needed!
This means that rather than go minimalistic with kit I can (and often do) carry in extra kit such as woodcarving tools, clean water (one site I use has no water source at all), comfort kit such as an extra tarp for a communal area or tools for shelter building, a decent spade for digging a trench latrine etc etc.
My take on Bushcraft does not rely on walking long distances or being able to carry all I need in one pocket - it is more about "re-connecting with the landscape", preferably in reasonable comfort, and craft work based on natural materials as much as possible (I like making things!) and my bushcraft overlaps into everyday life with many of the crafts being continued at home (I am not putting that in a pack and carrying it around!) - such as my wine making and foraged food meals.
An awful lot of my "Bushcraft" gear is also my "day to day" gear (at church last night I realised I was wearing exactly the same gear I wore for most of the Moot (it has been washed since) and when we have a large number of folk visiting I have been known to treat the woods as an extra bedroom and sleep out while visitors use my indoor bed!
OK - my life is a bit different to many folks experience as I do not easily differentiate between "work" and "leisure" my work including as it does testing outdoor gear and writing a "Bushcraft and Survival" column for a Motorcycle mag, making craft pieces for sale and even doing a bit of Bushcraft instruction ... but I cannot see why folk limit their connection with the outdoors by trimming their load to the lightest possible and not taking the resources they could carry into the woods for even more fun
And - as a wise man once said - "Travel light - freeze at night!" and another said "Any fool can be uncomfortable"
Paring the load is not for me - I am happy taking 2 loads in if I then have the tools to be comfortable and enjoy myself!
On long camps (like the Moot) my "basecamp kit" took several loads to carry in - and almost as many to carry out again - but I had equipment for archery, carving, knapping, cooking, netting etc to haul around

I am very much with you John.... My experience with the woods/bushcraft encompasses all things and means all sorts of kit gets dragged along, unless I am going light in my case means Boonie style, but that a different experience,

One thing that seems to be coming out here is those that go up and "walk and sleep in the hills"... and others that do the whole experience of "buschcrafting" and practicing all the crafts out in the woods, some times they cross but on the whole ones not right or is the other way,

when I go in to the most of the time , I take my shelter, sleeping gear, cooking gear, tripod, sharps for wood processing, craft stuff for spoons bowls ect, air gun, catty, and next time my archery stuff will being dragged along...

Horses fro courses.. really

 

[redandshane]

A very interesting thread
Some of us do not drive but still get out and about a lot all around the country
Both weight and to some extent bulk become very important priorities if you are walking any distance and also when using the Public transport system.
Age; as has been mentioned is also a factor and I can testify for the comment about paying in later years for carrying heavy packs when younger My knees and ankles have a fairly easily defined limit as to what they will take I use a walking pole or a stick to broaden that limit as well as keeping the actual weight I carry down.
Not to mention the use of anti inflammatory medication and elasticated knee supports as required.
I suppose what I am saying there are also long term benefits to keeping pack weight down when you are actually carrying a pack any distance
If you are car camping take whatever you want.Its all about each individuals circumstances and the needs of each trip.

 

[rg598]

I think the original question was answered within the question itself. If one goes car camping, then saving weight does not matter much. If you are carrying the weight on your back, then it matters a lot. It's just that simple.

Why do ounces count? Because there are only 16 of them in a pound. Can you carry more? Sure; but there is always a cost.

I don't know how things are in the UK, but here in the US (and I am by no means in deep wilderness), my trips involve anywhere from about 10 to 20 miles of traveling over a two day period. What you carry on your back and how much it weighs is critical.

On top of that, weight savings are crucial on longer trips because food accounts for so much weight. If you are starting out with a pack that is already heavy, and then you add 10 days worth of food, you have real problems.

The issue becomes even more significant if your activities in the woods involve more than walking. If you are climbing, and have to add the necessary equipment, your base weight has to be at bare minimum. Similarly, if I am hunting, and expect to be walking out of the forest with 100 lb of deboned whitetail deer, the base weight of my pack makes a huge difference.

I strongly disagree with assertions that bushcraft is somehow different from backpacking or hiking, or hunting from that matter, and that as a result gear weight does not matter. I use bushcraft on all of my trips, regardless of my objective. Bushcraft is a set of skills, and I apply them whether I am camping next to the car, climbing up a mountain, or fishing by the side of a lake.

Of course, if you are car camping, there is no need to worry about the weight of the gear.

 

[ex-member BareThrills]

I think the original question was answered within the question itself. If one goes car camping, then saving weight does not matter much. If you are carrying the weight on your back, then it matters a lot. It's just that simple.

Why do ounces count? Because there are only 16 of them in a pound. Can you carry more? Sure; but there is always a cost.

I don't know how things are in the UK, but here in the US (and I am by no means in deep wilderness), my trips involve anywhere from about 10 to 20 miles of traveling over a two day period. What you carry on your back and how much it weighs is critical.

On top of that, weight savings are crucial on longer trips because food accounts for so much weight. If you are starting out with a pack that is already heavy, and then you add 10 days worth of food, you have real problems.

The issue becomes even more significant if your activities in the woods involve more than walking. If you are climbing, and have to add the necessary equipment, your base weight has to be at bare minimum. Similarly, if I am hunting, and expect to be walking out of the forest with 100 lb of deboned whitetail deer, the base weight of my pack makes a huge difference.

I strongly disagree with assertions that bushcraft is somehow different from backpacking or hiking, or hunting from that matter, and that as a result gear weight does not matter. I use bushcraft on all of my trips, regardless of my objective. Bushcraft is a set of skills, and I apply them whether I am camping next to the car, climbing up a mountain, or fishing by the side of a lake.

Of course, if you are car camping, there is no need to worry about the weight of the gear.

I think that sums it up nicely for me too. Horses for courses, each to his own, live and let live. The interesting question for me would be if an old school mountain man from back in the day had access to lighter kit that worked would he have traded in his wool and canvas to save some kilos. I think probably he would. Im a firm believer that you can carry light and sleep warm at night. The only downside to modern kit compared to old school for me is durability and cost. Drop your ciggy on modern materials and its goodnight vienna but i guess thats why god invented gaffa tape

 

[rg598]

I think that sums it up nicely for me too. Horses for courses, each to his own, live and let live. The interesting question for me would be if an old school mountain man from back in the day had access to lighter kit that worked would he have traded in his wool and canvas to save some kilos. I think probably he would. Im a firm believer that you can carry light and sleep warm at night. The only downside to modern kit compared to old school for me is durability and cost. Drop your ciggy on modern materials and its goodnight vienna but i guess thats why god invented gaffa tape

I think you are right in that a woodsman from that time would quickly switch to lighter gear. I say that because so many of them were themselves obsessed with the weight of their gear. Nessmuk, Kephart, Kreps, they all discussed the latest trends in weight reduction and used the most modern materials available to them to cut every single ounce... and then they redid the process the following year.

I think it is a misconception that "traditional" gear is more durable than "modern" gear. I think it is just a matter of knowing the weaknesses of what you are using. Accounts from the past are filled with woodsmen complaining about wool blankets eaten by moths, mold on canvas tents, and rotting leather straps. Different materials get damaged in different ways. No matter what you use, you have to take care of it. If you do, it will last. If you don't it will not.

 

[Husky]

Perhaps it´s all been said but there is a merit to carrying less weight than more weight as in less exhaustion and increased comfort.
There is also a bit of science in how to shed weight without loosing safety or comfort. Some people have made this science their primary goal and are very good at it.
Others tend to not understand this science and kick the whole idea as being detrimental in one way or the other.
Personally I started looking at the light weight/ultralight trend when I was recovering from years of illness and any performance on my part was out of the question. Carrying less was the only way to be able to get out there. I started reading and found the basics to be pretty simple. Look at the three big ones first and also look at "unnecessary" items.
I substituted my 4kg "Hercules airdrop proof" bergan for a 1,5 kg framed backpack. My 2,5 kg synthetic sleeping bag for a 0.8 kg down one. I tried an inflatable mattress but found it uncomfortable and went for a lightweight version of a thick thermarest pad. Good sleep is essential for my performance!
I kept my heavy Hilleberg tent because I like the safety of its high quality as I also camp in the mountains during winter.
I have always carried the full trangia set but never used more then one single pot and the fryingpan as a lid. I got a lightweight gas burner and pot instead but still have the trangia for winter but with a kerosene burner.
I also learned not to take more clothes then I use and only things that ALL fit into a multi layer system. A warm summer night I use only my sleeping bag and my warm jacket as a pillow. In september when the nights go subzero I have exactly the same kit as in July, only now I sleep wearing thin undies, thick wool undies, thick wool socks and hat and if necessary I even wear my warm jacket and do without a pillow. I no longer take heavy gore tex clothes during summer as they do nothing that my undies, light windproof and light rain gear does not do in the right combination. I do not carry "an extra fleece in case I get wet" because I seldom get wet and can always deal with it using the other stuff I have.
By thinking like this I turned a 30 kg pack for a 4-5 day mountain hike into a 15 kg pack without compromising comfort or safety and it did not cost more then if I had got all new heavy stuff.
The reason I tried lightweight was because of poor health but I ended up learning a lot and becoming more experienced and needing less kit for the same level of comfort and safety.
I do not count grams but I am aware of ounces and how fast the make kilos and today I always consider weight when looking at kit.
Also be aware that the ultralight trend has resulted in some ultra high prices on the lightest kit but step down a couple of notches and you can find light stuff at even lower cost than heavier stuff. The only extra weight that I find beneficial is in materials that are fire and spark proof as I can then use exactly the same stuff for my bush craft, open fire overnights!

 

[Husky]

I forgot to mention, I read that "a kilo on your feet equals five on your back" or something to that effect. This is because while your pack just hangs there you have to lift your feet every step you take. It turns out that you don't need Meindl or army boots or wellies in the mountains. I tried light, mesh trainers and plastic bags for wet days and it works very well and the difference in not lifting a heavy boot every step is very noticeable.

 

[Bowlander]

I forgot to mention, I read that "a kilo on your feet equals five on your back" or something to that effect. This is because while your pack just hangs there you have to lift your feet every step you take. It turns out that you don't need Meindl or army boots or wellies in the mountains. I tried light, mesh trainers and plastic bags for wet days and it works very well and the difference in not lifting a heavy boot every step is very noticeable.

Trainers are ok on hard trails but try walking across wet heather moorland and your sneakers will be like George Michael.

Think I'll stick to my 1kg per foot Meindls rather than my Asics for the hill!

 

[Bowlander]

double post...damn you Tapatalk!

 

[PDA1]

@ Petrochemicals- Not just me. Think about it. If one is planning say the AT. That is 2,200 miles and is going to take 3,4 or 5 months. Not really feasible to "feed up" before starting and skimp thereafter. PCT and Continental Divide are even longer. It's people doing these hikes who generated the interest in lighter and lighter equipment.
@ Husky #48 - excellent reasoning. True in my case except it is old age and decrepitude rather than specific health breakdown.Re footwear, absolutely correct. About the only "excess" weight I carry are my trekking poles - I can't get up any kind of hill without them (or sown for that matter).

 

[Husky]

Trainers are ok on hard trails but try walking across wet heather moorland and your sneakers will be like George Michael.

Think I'll stick to my 1kg per foot Meindls rather than my Asics for the hill!

I just have to ask what you mean with "be like George Michael"?
I don't get the reference but I guess you don't mean that they will turn gay and start singing...?

 

[BearInTheWoods]

I just have to ask what you mean with "be like George Michael"?
I don't get the reference but I guess you don't mean that they will turn gay and start singing...?

Car crash? Just a guess.

 

[demographic]

Depends how far you have to carry it dunnit.
Most times if I'm out camping its just a short walk from my spacious van. If I was backpacking for a couple of months and intending to spend time away from guest houses I'd be far more concerned with how much weight I carry.
Plus this forum is UK based, hardly the Appalachian Trail is it?
Plus over here in Britain we are never more than 7 miles from a metalled road, that's not the case for quite a few countries and the closest shop that sells bacon eggs bread and milk for an early morning brecky might be a good distance away, so they want food they can rehydrate so they don't have to carry too much weight.

Judging by the kit forum here it looks like most people here don't go too far from the a vehicle. Otherwise there might be less stuff about dutch ovens, lavu tents with wood burning stoves inside. metal trivvets.

 

[BearInTheWoods]

Judging by the kit forum here it looks like most people here don't go too far from the a vehicle. Otherwise there might be less stuff about dutch ovens, lavu tents with wood burning stoves inside. metal trivvets.

Nothing a decent team of Sherpas couldn't handle.

 

[Minotaur]

First off I believe it is all down to Ray Jardine.

I forgot to mention, I read that "a kilo on your feet equals five on your back" or something to that effect. This is because while your pack just hangs there you have to lift your feet every step you take. It turns out that you don't need Meindl or army boots or wellies in the mountains. I tried light, mesh trainers and plastic bags for wet days and it works very well and the difference in not lifting a heavy boot every step is very noticeable.

Actually this is sort of Ray's point if you lighten your load you can lighten your footwear. You need the big boots to protect your legs and ankles when carrying weight. He wants to hike barefoot at least in the book that started it.

The change is suppose to mean you can go from struggling to do 20 miles to smiling and doing 60. He wanted to do some of the US trails which are big distances so instead of carrying food for 2 or 3 days he is carrying for two weeks.

What was said about the Scouts etc who basically starting camping etc using old army kit was true however that is what Ray goes back to they used to make their own stuff because they could not buy it.

I overheard 2 cyclists in a local café talking about how light their carbon fibre bikes were and how it improves their performance. Losing the 3 stone from around their mid-riff would probably have a greater effect - not a pretty sight in lycra!

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lol - I do wonder about the lengths of some of the lightweight stuff and the price difference! That said the way they think about things is very interesting my favorite is the Goretex jacket thought which lead the lightweights to anoraks, three layers with a wicking base layer.

 

[Bowlander]

I just have to ask what you mean with "be like George Michael"?
I don't get the reference but I guess you don't mean that they will turn gay and start singing...?

Sorry for the obscure reference!

They'll get sucked off in bogs


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[ex-member BareThrills]

Sorry for the obscure reference!

They'll get sucked off in bogs


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Class. Proper howling here

 

[demographic]

Nothing a decent team of Sherpas couldn't handle.

Good point, do we have to add the Sherpas to the gear list? The LDV ones look quite heavy.