What's that thin bit of cotton webbing on the back of the British Army PLCE Bergen?

[Surrey Yeoman]

.................. So we still don't know what the straps at the head of this thread are for then?

I couldn't find a sensible use for them when I was in the mob either, so I cut them off to save weight - every little helps!

 

[RAPPLEBY2000]

NOOOOOOO!



I think the general concensus seems to be a very basic means of attaching a shovel or ice axe to the pack.
a few Ex military guy's have said this.
I still think it's badly designed for the job but that's how it is.

 

[RAPPLEBY2000]

just thought should we start a "Pimp the unknown strap" thread!

 

[Native Nathan]

When I was in the army we used this ti secure an Ice axe to our begens.

I thought the loops on the inside bottom were to allow it to attach to the PLCE webbing, but i think looking at the stiching I think it may be for the Para boys...

 

[He' s left the building]

I can assure everyone that no straps on the pack are used for parachuting. The link below shows the detail of the 'CSPEP' which is a stand-alone strapping/release assembly (in current use by UK military parachutists):
http://www.airborne-sys.com/pdfs/_A... PARACHUTES - ACCESSORIES/CSPEP/CSPEP Mk4.pdf

The pack is best carried wrapped in a cover, with the CSPEP strapping around the bundle, so nothing is free to snag or get caught up. The attached rope is 15 feet, the pack is usually lowered during descent and once lowered it can also be released completely if necessary. On a 15 foot rope, the pack hits the floor about one second before the parachutist, which is useful at night but you can generally sense you are near the ground due to becoming level with the skyline!

The pictures above and in the pdf (linked) show unwrapped packs, but no strapping on the actual pack is used to rig the gear for jumping.

 

[RAPPLEBY2000]

oh.

Ok, perhaps it to lower packs down a cliff face for example?

whilst we're at it I've found some more mystery straps!!

to find them:

take 1 side pouch (it dosen't need to be on the bergen) but keep it zipped closed.

take a look at the zipped pocket, lift up the fabric covering the zip... note the 2 small webbing loops?

now what are they???

pure guesses:
1: a backup closure (if the zip fails)?
2: camo attachment?
3: again possibly for radio antennae use?

again no idea, can anyone help?

 

[Mastino]

I now know!! All this straps are meant to keep us busy!! It's a conspiracy...

 

[Retired Member southey]

I think its those straps that hold the key to universe, if you very carefully unpick them you can follow the trail to the gates and there you should find enlightenment, or find something else to quiz about, this is now all can think about!

 

[sapper1]

The loops on the side pouches are for when you break the zip.You can use some cord to tie the pockets shut.The loops on the face of the pocket are what you tie them to.

 

[John Fenna]

The designer had a loop fetish?

 

[The Lord Poncho]

I can assure everyone that no straps on the pack are used for parachuting. The link below shows the detail of the 'CSPEP' which is a stand-alone strapping/release assembly (in current use by UK military parachutists).

That may be the current system in use, but prior to this that was what the loops were designed for!

Re. the loops on the side pockets- i've always assumed they were for emergency closure too....

This thread is quite loopy isn't it.

 

[RAPPLEBY2000]

Ok shall I tidy the thread up.

the thin cotton webbing strap on the rear of the PLCE Bergen:
was designed to carry an Ice axe or 58 style shovel which it still can.
though it could be used to attach ID or coloured marker for night use.
(the strap is not on the current issue Bergen).

the well stitched loops on the wearers side near the kidneys:
Were at one time used to carry the Bergen whilst parachuting(since then a better/safer system has been put in place), technically it still could be used for that purpose or in a "climbing/hauling gear" scenario.
a popular use now, is to stow the folded belt if needed.

the loops just under the flap of the side pouches
were designed to be used as an emergency closure.

I think I'll add: (because i know someone that hadn't come across this)
on the side pouch yoke the 2 front clips hold a length of webbing, it has on it 3 male clips, the sewn in one goes to the base of the side pouch, the middle one goes to the shoulder strap and there's one more!
the spare one is designed to clip onto the front of PLCE webbing (take a look at a PLCE ammo pouch!) it allows some of the weight of the sidepouches/webbing to be spread around.
(alternatively if you don't have or want a PLCE webbing you always have a spare male clip!)

any more loops I've missed?

 

[He' s left the building]

the well stitched loops on the wearers side near the kidneys:
Were at one time used to carry the Bergen whilst parachuting(since then a better/safer system has been put in place)

Those straps have never been used for that purpose, the CSPEP has been in use for many years, years before this pack was even designed.

The manufacturors website even states the straps can be an aid to parachuting, which means the pack was designed on a flawed concept http://www.cqc.co.uk/rucksack90patterninfantry.asp but the straps have been left on the pack design regardless.

There is no way that these straps could be used to secure the pack to the parachute harness, a release mechanism is necessary and the pack was never designed/configured to be used without the CSPEP (which also allows other equipment/weapon systems to be carried and has some other safety-critical features to prevent the load moving when exiting the aircraft).

The CSPEP in the link I posted would have entered service around 2000, as it was trialled in 1999. The previous version had two release 'hooks' and the newer version replaced these hooks with the red handle (as shown) which links to a release mechanism made of kevlar loops. But there was always a CSPEP, it is not possible to make a safe parachute descent (with equipment) without one!

 

[RAPPLEBY2000]

A good point well made!

Thanks for the site link, I've been looking for it but coulden't think of the name.

They also designed a (in 2 section)Bergen similar to the much hated US Molle which looks quite uncomfortable to carry!(which since checking the site they've removed from their products!)

 

[backdownunder]

The spare male connectors on the day pack yoke can also be used to make a more secure fastening to the base of the pack when used in the double pack formation.
Connect the sewn on clip to the shoulder strap of the yoke and then attach next male clip onto the bottom attachment. This will leave you with the last clip on the bottom.
Disconnect the loops used to fasten the day pack to your webbing belt and clip the remaining male clip into this. This should make your pack and yoke nice and secure. You will of course have the spare male clip and webbing hanging down but just tuck it up out of the way.
Thanks for the threads on this subject it has made interesting reading.

 

[johnboy]

Those straps have never been used for that purpose, the CSPEP has been in use for many years, years before this pack was even designed.

The manufacturors website even states the straps can be an aid to parachuting, which means the pack was designed on a flawed concept http://www.cqc.co.uk/rucksack90patterninfantry.asp but the straps have been left on the pack design regardless.

There is no way that these straps could be used to secure the pack to the parachute harness, a release mechanism is necessary and the pack was never designed/configured to be used without the CSPEP (which also allows other equipment/weapon systems to be carried and has some other safety-critical features to prevent the load moving when exiting the aircraft).

The CSPEP in the link I posted would have entered service around 2000, as it was trialled in 1999. The previous version had two release 'hooks' and the newer version replaced these hooks with the red handle (as shown) which links to a release mechanism made of kevlar loops. But there was always a CSPEP, it is not possible to make a safe parachute descent (with equipment) without one!

Hi,

Sorry to resurect this thread but I noticed that on the "Field Pack Air Support Back" the mystery straps are also present.

Here this shows a Shot of the Back of this specialist Bergen.

Since the Bergen is issued pretty much exclusively to Pathfinders and 'Them' I'd say the 'mystery straps' are possibly something to do with rigging the Bergen for HALO / HAHO

Nothing to do with bushcraft but possibly interesting to someone.

Front Shot of "Field Pack Air Support Back"

Cheers

 

[RAPPLEBY2000]

Since the Bergen is issued pretty much exclusively to Pathfinders and 'Them' I'd say the 'mystery straps' are possibly something to do with rigging the Bergen for HALO / HAHO

Just to clarify: both are forms of parachuting (you just skydive first instead of the parachute opening straight away)....

HALO (High Altitude Low Opening)
HAHO (High Altitude High Opening)?

Pathfinders are practically special forces aren't they?
if this is the case, and they have bags for HALO etc, why put the straps n every Bergen, why not Just for the parachutists?

or is it a cunning disguise? if the enemy found a Bergen left by accident by lets say Army Driver the enemy seeing the straps could think a Para had just landed? if we're all confused about it i reckon the enemy would be too!
for much the same reason that (aparently) the SAS use standard PLCE webbing today where as they used to be issued specialist gear. nowerdays the enemy can't tell the sort of soldier by looking at his webbing, is it the same idea with those straps?

the quest for knowledge goes on!

(by the way i like the gucci kit! quick release shoulder straps and a much nicer looking back panel!)

 

[johnboy]

Hi,

Just to clarify: both are forms of parachuting (you just skydive first instead of the parachute opening straight away)....

HALO (High Altitude Low Opening)
HAHO (High Altitude High Opening)?

Yes in HALO you effectively 'skydive' with the canopy opening at a lower level. The Idea being the delivery aircraft can stay at altitude and avoid detection the parachutist by 'skydiving' avoids possible detection by deploying the canopy at the last possible moment.

HAHO is the opposite the Parachutist deploys the canopy at high level. It's possible using ram air canopies to effectively fly cross country over a reasonable distance and navigate to a DZ. HAHO would be used if the enemy has a credible air defence asset or if you were being ultra Sneaky Beaky and inserting by flying across a border for example.

Normal Military parachuting uses a static line the parachutist exits the aircraft and the main parachute canopy is actuated by a mechanical link or strop attached to the aircraft.

Pathfinders are practically special forces aren't they?

Pathfinders are a brigade level asset of 16 Air Assault Brigade. They could be considered to be Special Forces they are certianly an Elite.

if this is the case, and they have bags for HALO etc, why put the straps n every Bergen, why not Just for the parachutists?

or is it a cunning disguise? if the enemy found a Bergen left by accident by lets say Army Driver the enemy seeing the straps could think a Para had just landed? if we're all confused about it i reckon the enemy would be too!
for much the same reason that (aparently) the SAS use standard PLCE webbing today where as they used to be issued specialist gear. nowerdays the enemy can't tell the sort of soldier by looking at his webbing, is it the same idea with those straps?

Crikey you've been thinking about that one...

The Green 90 patten Bergens predate the 'Field Pack Air Support Back' by quite a few years. I guess at the time of specifing the 90 pattern Bergen to CQC the MOD wanted it to be able to be used by a multitude of differing units Pathfinders and 'Them' included. At some point the 90 pattern Bergen has not met the needs of specialist units and the Field Pack Air Support Back has been introduced.

Interesting but nothing much to do with bushcraft.. Unless you plan to insert into your Bushcraft location from a C130... like...
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmeFTkOkd0M


Cheers

John

 

[RAPPLEBY2000]

bad link mate.

 

[johnboy]

Interesting but nothing much to do with bushcraft.. Unless you plan to insert into your Bushcraft location from a C130... like..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmeFTkOkd0M

Here this should work.

Cheers

John