Why do you feel it is crap? There is numerous waiting lists and most Groups are full. So people must like it? Or did you have a bad experience?
What would a modern scouts be like?
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No mate I think you misunderstood me, I think it would be less than great today if it started now in 2020……………………something.
As for me, I went a few times as and was made to feel like it wasn’t for the likes of me. I was off a council estate and a bit rough around the edges compared to the other boys there. I never let that tar the whole thing for me mind, I knew there were other groups who I knew would have been much better. I just never went to them.
I am ex Queen's Scout and ASL to have been away from scouting for thirty years to be seeking a return to it and seeking a return to it since I found out it is no longer what it was, for sure I was under the impression some of my life's choices had barred me from my further involvement to with delight discover Scouting has with the times; evolved and evolved in a good way, to in actual fact mirror a lot of the better attitudes of the young, for it to appear to me as if it's the young that is carving out the direction modern scouting is taking
As regards thoughts of what if pertaining to the idea of scouting forming in the modern age without precedent, I ask would it even, for sure Scouting's perhaps quasi military origins has been one of it's strengths in the forging of communities and from communities the promotion of public service and responsibility, something of which may be lacking these days as everyone folds into their selves for suspicion of one another to be fostered.
As regards thoughts of what if pertaining to the idea of scouting forming in the modern age without precedent, I ask would it even, for sure Scouting's perhaps quasi military origins has been one of it's strengths in the forging of communities and from communities the promotion of public service and responsibility, something of which may be lacking these days as everyone folds into their selves for suspicion of one another to be fostered.
There's more youth involvement in communities and important matters even globally in these times. I think kids of today would be capable of all the best of early scouting without the negatives. We are in an age where kids are aware of so much more than in he past. They get involved more and often off their own back.
It's not just middle class or higher incomes. I heard about a primary school in a deprived area who did fundraising with a target of a few hundred. When asked what they wanted to buy for the school the kids asked for it to go to a hospital kids ward. They ended up giving 5 figures to the ward. That was the kid's choice without prompting from kids.
A lot of older people seem to be to despair of the kids of today but I see there's more good in them than my generation had at their age. It's not just the big names like Greta Thunberg neither.
It's not just middle class or higher incomes. I heard about a primary school in a deprived area who did fundraising with a target of a few hundred. When asked what they wanted to buy for the school the kids asked for it to go to a hospital kids ward. They ended up giving 5 figures to the ward. That was the kid's choice without prompting from kids.
A lot of older people seem to be to despair of the kids of today but I see there's more good in them than my generation had at their age. It's not just the big names like Greta Thunberg neither.
People my age do not really care about the environment, we make more mess and throw away more plastic than anyone. Out of my whole school there are about five people that care about the wild places and they don’t go out. Out of all my friends, only one has been out riding with me This whole summer. All the others stay at home and talk on their silly iPads. Greta is an idiot. How dare she, it is her generation that doesnt care. Not the older generations.
Hopefully this won't sound flippant, but I imagine that it would start with an Equity, Diversity and Inclusion policy and some serious questions about Baden Powell's place in an expansive colonial endeavour. Also, perhaps the survival and self-care skills may not come from military cultures but rather those learned and passed on by migrants, refugees and the otherwise homeless.
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There's more youth involvement in communities and important matters even globally in these times. I think kids of today would be capable of all the best of early scouting without the negatives. We are in an age where kids are aware of so much more than in he past. They get involved more and often off their own back.
It's not just middle class or higher incomes. I heard about a primary school in a deprived area who did fundraising with a target of a few hundred. When asked what they wanted to buy for the school the kids asked for it to go to a hospital kids ward. They ended up giving 5 figures to the ward. That was the kid's choice without prompting from kids.
A lot of older people seem to be to despair of the kids of today but I see there's more good in them than my generation had at their age. It's not just the big names like Greta Thunberg neither. Although I think she's overrated and overhyped. She's not really doing as much as those who have deified her make out. There's a lot of small things being done by kids I've seen. But universal but a lot more of it than my generation. We had Bob a job in cubs, that was a hang up from pre decimalisation which happened before I was born. We all raised very little. Our parents had to bully us and we did the minimum. It was more like our neighbours giving a donation to charity than getting a job done. None of our cubs or scouts did supermarket packing in my day or conservation work or anything.
It's not just middle class or higher incomes. I heard about a primary school in a deprived area who did fundraising with a target of a few hundred. When asked what they wanted to buy for the school the kids asked for it to go to a hospital kids ward. They ended up giving 5 figures to the ward. That was the kid's choice without prompting from kids.
A lot of older people seem to be to despair of the kids of today but I see there's more good in them than my generation had at their age. It's not just the big names like Greta Thunberg neither. Although I think she's overrated and overhyped. She's not really doing as much as those who have deified her make out. There's a lot of small things being done by kids I've seen. But universal but a lot more of it than my generation. We had Bob a job in cubs, that was a hang up from pre decimalisation which happened before I was born. We all raised very little. Our parents had to bully us and we did the minimum. It was more like our neighbours giving a donation to charity than getting a job done. None of our cubs or scouts did supermarket packing in my day or conservation work or anything.
We had in Germany a similar movement called Wandervogel that got mixed up with the boy scouts after British pattern, but has approximately the same age and also still exists in pure forms.
The Wandervogel was culturally more active, formed in groups of rather mixed age, started with teenagers instead of children and didn't wear uniforms but a over the times changing kind of own fashion. Older becoming members usually stood in the clubs and connected.
Although created and founded independently the life styles of both moovements were so close that they mixed up.
We have in Germany nowadays several hundred independent clubs that have different positions on the scale between Wandervogel and boy scouts after British pattern, most are a mix of both and if you have a closer look you will find them pretty different to boy scouts of other countries.
The main difference of the German boy scouts with Wandervogel influence is that they are mainly hiking in small groups and organise only very short camps to meet each other. They never would spend the whole summer holidays in one and the same large camp.
If I write here in the forum about myself, I usually translate to "boy scouts", but I am a Wandervogel, by the way.
I think if the boy scout movement would found itself now, it would rather become like the Wandervogel, what means less structured and more individual than the usual boy scout associations. But generally it would become very very similar.
I hink B.P. just looked at the already existing youth structures and gave the whole thing a better and larger organization.
But you had always and everywhere very similar "wild" groups with similar forms. Teenagers simply live in groups of approximately 5 to 15 people. Like adult people live in couples.
The boy scout movement became so strong and old because the idea simply did hit the nail at the right point.
The Wandervogel was culturally more active, formed in groups of rather mixed age, started with teenagers instead of children and didn't wear uniforms but a over the times changing kind of own fashion. Older becoming members usually stood in the clubs and connected.
Although created and founded independently the life styles of both moovements were so close that they mixed up.
We have in Germany nowadays several hundred independent clubs that have different positions on the scale between Wandervogel and boy scouts after British pattern, most are a mix of both and if you have a closer look you will find them pretty different to boy scouts of other countries.
The main difference of the German boy scouts with Wandervogel influence is that they are mainly hiking in small groups and organise only very short camps to meet each other. They never would spend the whole summer holidays in one and the same large camp.
If I write here in the forum about myself, I usually translate to "boy scouts", but I am a Wandervogel, by the way.
I think if the boy scout movement would found itself now, it would rather become like the Wandervogel, what means less structured and more individual than the usual boy scout associations. But generally it would become very very similar.
I hink B.P. just looked at the already existing youth structures and gave the whole thing a better and larger organization.
But you had always and everywhere very similar "wild" groups with similar forms. Teenagers simply live in groups of approximately 5 to 15 people. Like adult people live in couples.
The boy scout movement became so strong and old because the idea simply did hit the nail at the right point.
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One the distinct improvements I have observed of modern scouting is in allowing girls to join to have even though the idea was on the cards in the 1970's when ' Royal Purple ' was chosen as the backing to the fleur-de-lis.
But if adults think modern kids are going astray, perhaps such adults should consider the act of public service that is volunteering to become involved in scouting, for sure there is no point whingeing about something if one is not prepared to act on that thing being whinged about, unless of course one just likes whingeing, perhaps as a hobby of some sort.
But if adults think modern kids are going astray, perhaps such adults should consider the act of public service that is volunteering to become involved in scouting, for sure there is no point whingeing about something if one is not prepared to act on that thing being whinged about, unless of course one just likes whingeing, perhaps as a hobby of some sort.
Supposedly BP saw the pathetic knowledge and experience of new raw recruits TY the army that he saw a need to set up a organisation to prepare kids for the army later in life. How true I have no idea but that's what I got told by scout leaders. It's why you have the group split into subgroups with different names, a leader and deputy in a hierarchical way. You had parades, inspections, saluting the flag, attention and at ease. You wore shirt, trousers and a neckerchief plus a beret with a badge iirc. Now it's sweatshirt or polo shirt for beavers and more informal for older sections too.
Seems to me, after reading the foregoing 28 posts, that what's needed badly is that which has been absent for a generation or more, which is simply a sense of common purpose. Much of what has already been said follows on from that one simple concept.
I think in many countries the Boy Scout's connection to army was fairly strong, of course depending a lot from one country to another. Like the hand signalss of scouts when I started just happened to be identical to army tactical hand signs, somewhat to my surprise even though I had heard about the possible connections.
I think that if something like BS movement were to be started now it would look a lot like some semi environmental movements or possibly like Erbswurst's Wandervogels but not like a prep course for infantry.
I think that if something like BS movement were to be started now it would look a lot like some semi environmental movements or possibly like Erbswurst's Wandervogels but not like a prep course for infantry.
I have done a lot reading pertaining to BP, reading I didn't do back in the day, due to I guess lack of interest, but other, knowledge of BP beyond the basics wasn't pushed. And yeah in my reading I have observed the critique from a modern perspective apportioned BP, to consider him just a product of his time and training both military, schooling, even familial, to be bound to a convention not of his own making, to celebrate what he despite his failings, created for scouting was my saviour in my youth.
"What would a modern scouts be like?"
Well... I seem to recall it was originally called "Boy scouts"... So a modern version I invisage lasting approximately a month before someone loses their **** about its name and how its not inclusive for those who identify as a toaster or something like that...
Well... I seem to recall it was originally called "Boy scouts"... So a modern version I invisage lasting approximately a month before someone loses their **** about its name and how its not inclusive for those who identify as a toaster or something like that...
I doubt in todays society it would be acceptable, it would not meet the parameters of todays modern thinking, kids (boys&girls et al) would not be allowed to do things that may cause mitigation or be too risky, we do live in a compensation culture after all, parents today have little faith in their offspring, and God forbid they should be put in a predicament where they would have to use their nous, Oh the humiliation if they were unable to complete a task albeit simple, it may affect them for the rest of their life. Why should these little darlings be expected to do tasks where they get dirty and muddy, Mummy (and Daddy sometimes) has a busy life and has no time to wash uniforms, especially when they smell of outdoors, and the thought of their little babies having to sleep in a smelly tent, Oh perish the thought, anyway to top it all, they go to places where you can't get a signal on the phone, and that is just not on.
(tongue in cheek)
(tongue in cheek)
OK I'm not sure about that. Our son's school took kids kayaking on an estuary where we live. They were 8 years old and there were no kayaker among the teachers and volunteer parents with them, only one instructor. Half the year did kayaking, the other half sailed with another instructor.
There's a lot of adventurous activities going on with kids in primary school upwards who are not part of scouts. There's also been bushcraft days out with a local estate that's into education and forest schools. Things with knives too.
I used to have a mate from kayaking who worked at a LEA outdoor centre. They did stuff for schools but also social inclusion stuff. He told me a story about a climbing trip with 5 and 6 year old from different communities from Burnley I believe. Another with kids a year younger where there was a incident that got parents complained not about the activities but about something happened at the farm they had to n walk through.
I think there's always been interest in adventurous activities for kids. It's not a issue doing it safely and trust with the organisation would happen quickly if run well. So I think an adventurous organisation could be set up now almost as easy as back then. It just wouldn't have the b trappings of militarism of the original scouts or division between kids on any grounds. Doesn't have to be completely PC just open to all who are interested.
There's a lot of adventurous activities going on with kids in primary school upwards who are not part of scouts. There's also been bushcraft days out with a local estate that's into education and forest schools. Things with knives too.
I used to have a mate from kayaking who worked at a LEA outdoor centre. They did stuff for schools but also social inclusion stuff. He told me a story about a climbing trip with 5 and 6 year old from different communities from Burnley I believe. Another with kids a year younger where there was a incident that got parents complained not about the activities but about something happened at the farm they had to n walk through.
I think there's always been interest in adventurous activities for kids. It's not a issue doing it safely and trust with the organisation would happen quickly if run well. So I think an adventurous organisation could be set up now almost as easy as back then. It just wouldn't have the b trappings of militarism of the original scouts or division between kids on any grounds. Doesn't have to be completely PC just open to all who are interested.
I mean, I was a little pessimistic with my reply... I know that the reality is that my views are probably the result of a vocal minority rather than the common thoughts of the collective.
The issue is that any outdoor activities are "dangerous" when compared to either sitting in a class room (at least in the UK) or sitting at home on a computer playing video games... Now, we live in a society where danger is nearly deemed totally unacceptable...
Naturally I guess no one wants their kids to be killed or injured.. none of us want to be killed or injured, but preventative measures can only go so far...as can budget restrictions.. so the reality is excursions (and daily life) are carried out using risk assessments, whether written on a form or even just a mental risk assessment (like when driving - should I chance this overtake? The road ahead is clear, no cars, risk is low, sure a meteor might fall from the sky and hit the exact position I'd be in if I overtake, but it's a risk I'm willing to take)...and unfortunately nothing is entirely risk free.. but naturally parents don't like it if their child is the 0.001% in life.. so to avoid all risk and all culpability and all liability and all reputational damage, it's easy just to say "nah, not doing trips at this school/club/whatever, safer to stay at home and watch TV.."
...well that didn't get any less pessimistic did it..
The issue is that any outdoor activities are "dangerous" when compared to either sitting in a class room (at least in the UK) or sitting at home on a computer playing video games... Now, we live in a society where danger is nearly deemed totally unacceptable...
Naturally I guess no one wants their kids to be killed or injured.. none of us want to be killed or injured, but preventative measures can only go so far...as can budget restrictions.. so the reality is excursions (and daily life) are carried out using risk assessments, whether written on a form or even just a mental risk assessment (like when driving - should I chance this overtake? The road ahead is clear, no cars, risk is low, sure a meteor might fall from the sky and hit the exact position I'd be in if I overtake, but it's a risk I'm willing to take)...and unfortunately nothing is entirely risk free.. but naturally parents don't like it if their child is the 0.001% in life.. so to avoid all risk and all culpability and all liability and all reputational damage, it's easy just to say "nah, not doing trips at this school/club/whatever, safer to stay at home and watch TV.."
...well that didn't get any less pessimistic did it..
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