What vehicle for bushcraft?

[Ben Trout]

If you're not after an off-roader how about a Skoda Felicia Fun.

Basically its a small pickup but the rear bulkhead folds out into two more seats, making it a sort of convertible. Mine has a truckman top so it can do estate car or van modes as well! Being car based the rear load bay is fairly low so it's much easier to load up than office block off-road pickups

Little 1.6 VW engine up front so it's OK for reliability and econnomy. Plus it's the yellowest production car ever built!

Change the cam belt AND tensioner on time and it'll go forever.

 

[pierre girard]

I've been driving now for many years, but never my own vehicle - living in Edinburgh means that the need for one is quite low, since everything is in walking distance, and the buses are good for farther away places.

However, every now and then I think that I should consider investing in a vehicle (second-hand, reliable, not new or flashy) that will get me, some people and/or some equipment from A->B with as little effort as possible.

My only real limiting factors are:

Cost to buy - nothing more than say 5-6 grand - its not something I'll be using regularly (once/twice a week at most I expect).

Size - nothing vast or tiny - I don't need a tank or a mini (I'm 6'4" and wanting to park most of the time in a city, and at least drive in and out of it.

Running - I need something that doesn't cost the earth to fix, isn't too picky about not being run every day, and isn't too environmentally horrible to run (yes, I know that really rules out all vehicles )

So - any suggestions? What do other people use? Any general or specific comments about choosing? I'm interested to see what the bushcrafter-about-countryside drives about in (you don't ALL drive 4x4's do you? )

I guess for getting into out of the way places, a 4X4 is nice, but I've lived my entire life, so far, without one - dealing with heavy snow in winter, and some pretty bad logging roads in summer. As 4X4s are so tough on gas (petrol), to say nothing of the purchase price, I've just never been able to justify buying one.

Most of my cars have been small front wheel drive cars. They get good mileage and have good traction. I usually have some kind of two wheel drive pickup truck as well. For heavy snow, I usually put about three 70 pound bags of sand in the back of the pickup - and have never had any problems.

Best car I ever owned was a 1993 Ford Escort. It would go anywhere (and did), had enough room in the back to haul what I needed, and I got 373,000 miles on it before it threw a timing belt and the water pump went out at the same time. I retired it as I figured I'd got my money's worth out of it.

PG

 

[Cairodel]

We used to have a Daewoo Matiz, which we used to pack up and take into desert locations all over the place... as sombody else said, we took it to places some 4x4 drivers wouldn't attempt...

Now, however, we have a 1980 series3 109, which was basically re-built from the ground up..

and a 1989 Defender 110, which is getting that way... Just as soon as I get the
gearbox parts from the UK....
Should be about another fortnight.

I'm digressing now, but basically, we now go much further off-road, better equipped, and after half a dozen deep desert safaris, have never found ourselves in a situation where we required assistance.
This past Friday we attended the 2006 Jeep Experience here in Cairo, and during the pre-drive lecture, the instructor was talking about the Jeep systems compared to others, and I quote "You have your Toyotas, Mitsubishis etc, etc, but of course, then there is Land Rover, which we won't go into....." and when I asked if I could take the 110 around the course, was met with a definite "No you can't.!!!"
They won't even let us tag along on "Jeep Club" trips... probably waste too much time waiting for them to dig themselves out...

 

[running bare]

Is this battered enough

The spare is on the off side front as I got another puncture off-roading.
I take her off-road just about everyday on my adventures around the isle. She gets scrapped by branches the stearing guard and diffs get grounded but nothing has stopped her yet.
"She may be old and slow but she's in front of you and will go where you daren't follow" is the legend I want on a spare wheel cover.
I would say get a Landie as they are the most fun you can have with your trousers on. You can do tons of stuff with them that you can't with an ordinary car.

And I bet you can't do this with a 2CV

http://www.oldwoodies.com/img/africar/2africar.jpg

wanna bet check this out from the late 70's early 80's

 

[Salix]

I am lucky enough to drive a spanking new Landrover 110 for my work, nice big warn X9000i winch on the front......................................................totally useless road tyres (transport managers eh! no nothin ).
I've allways had a 110 for work, and we've punished them over the years, they do take a battering. I find that (being a tallish, big bloke) that Landy's lack space, width wise, leading to Landy elbow - driving with elbow hanging from window. And, for such a big vehicle......................not really much stowing space, even in a 110, thank god for the roofrack! Off road, i dont think you can beat them, but on road, they aint up to much, just to damn noisy an uncomfortable. One day i was introduced to the Toyota Hilux :notworthy comfort, spacious, good handling both off and on road. If i was going to shed some cash myself, i think the Hilux would win.

Mark

 

[Patriot]

All the toys are nice - but out of the box with no modifications a land rover does everything it is asked to. No other vehicle has such a presence about it or such a community.

I am going to replace mine with an older series III lwb soft top, when I get a good offer.

I think once everything has its place storage is good. I have at least four kids with me on holidays. That means four bikes and the two seater cycle trailer, fisihing rods, tents, loads of water, food and a fridge. I could go on.

Anyway, I still haven't considered a trailer but a sankey would be good if additional space was required!

 

[wizard]

I am jealous! I would absolutely love to own a Defender 110! Here in the states they cost about $60,000 to buy a used, 1993 Def 110!! They have not sold them here since '93 and I beleive there were only a few hundred imported. That leaves us with Jeeps, which are too small or a variety of grocery getter utility vehicles, mostly too low and too pretty to take off the highways. Jeep is coming out with a nice 4 door Wrangler Unlimited in 2007 that may be my dream ride, since I could never afford a Defender 110. We do have Discoverys in the US, but the new model, LR2 is a glorified station wagon with no serious capability. The earlier ones are fine, but I always prefer not to have all time 4wd. We also have the Hummer H3, which is funny looking with windows that look like gun slits on a WWII half-track
Right now I have an Isuzu Trooper 4x4 which is an alright vehicle except for that half a Ferrari, overly complex aluminum engine. Really costly to repair it and very fragile. I also have a 2004 Cherolet Trailblazer 4x4 which is a nice highway rider, great in snow and gets decent milage on long trips. Too plush for much outdoors work! I only hope I can afford a 2007 Jeep Unlimited, that looks to be the vehicle that "fits" me Cheers!

 

[wingstoo]

I am jealous! I would absolutely love to own a Defender 110! Here in the states they cost about $60,000 to buy a used, 1993 Def 110!!

Yikes...Mine was a bargain then at £2100...

LS

 

[wizard]

Yes, 2100 pounds would surely be a bargain! Of course, the steering wheel is on the wrong side
I guess the reason the the Defenders are so expensive in the US is because there were so few imported here. There are more Def 90's here than 110's, but still bring premium prices. I would say about $30,000 for a good Defender 90, 1997 was the most recent year for them here. Maybe someday we will get more Defenders in the US, I doubt it though, there are so many utility vehicles here already and most are all plushed out for Mom to go get the groceries in. Lots of Jeeps around, still a great little vehicle, just too small for much serious camping gear. I can only hope that the new 4 door version is affordable. Not sure, I may trade my Trailblazer on a Jeep. The Trailbazer has been an excellent vehicle though, 32,000 miles and not one single problem. I even had a small car run into the back on the expressway once and my only damage was scratched paint on the reciever trailer hitch. I was amazed!
If you ever want to sell the Defender for under 2100 pounds, let me know. I think the shipping may be a deal killer though Cheers!

 

[Neil1]

I have used & abused a Suzuki Vitara for the last four years, robust, cheap to run and go most places (well until your feet take over - I have 4x4, tdi, go-anywhere feet, whith a spine & bergen bolt-on facility that carries the kit along too).
4x4's , for the most part inthe the UK are "big-boys-toys", few people have a real need for them, and very few actually use them to their full potential.
Something small, economic, that has the ability to get you along the loosest definition of a road is really all you need.
Years back I was working on Dartmoor thru the winter, we had a little snow, my work place was bang in the centre of the moor, my route to work took me up big hills and down perilous slopes that twisted and turned.
On Arrival at work (10 minutes late!) I pulled into a line of land rovers (the only viechles to make it in that day) well accept my little Fiat Cinquento
What can I say!
Neil

 

[Martyn]

OK, I'm gonna get flamed for this, I'm sure, but...
I have to say, I'm horrified at all the "get a landrover" responses.

For people who are supposed to be the custodians of the countryside with "take only photo's and leave only footprints" as an often cited catchphrase, the suggestions for landrovers are crazy. They are one of the most environmentally unfriendly vehicles on the road, not just because they chew the place up (...if you are not off-roading, why have one?), but because they consume horrendous amounts of fuel and pump buckets of CO2 into the sky. The guy asked for suggestions for a bushcraft vehicle. I think the obvious answer is not a landrover, but "catch the bus and walk the rest". I appreciate that is probably a little unrealistic, but I think it's a lot closer to a "bushcraft" solution, than a 110. Certainly given the chaps remit of...

My only real limiting factors are:

Cost to buy - nothing more than say 5-6 grand - its not something I'll be using regularly (once/twice a week at most I expect).

Size - nothing vast or tiny - I don't need a tank or a mini (I'm 6'4" and wanting to park most of the time in a city, and at least drive in and out of it.

Running - I need something that doesn't cost the earth to fix, isn't too picky about not being run every day, and isn't too environmentally horrible to run (yes, I know that really rules out all vehicles )

Shouldnt we be recommenting an economical, environmentally friendly town car - most cars can run up a dirt track, maybe something a bit ruggedized, but that stops a long way short of an old 110.

Personally, I'd love an old landy, but I have virtually no need at all for taking one off-roading (very few people genuinely do) and I simply cant justify chucking all that crap into the environment just because I fancy myself in one.

I would buy a freelander TD4 though, 34mpg and lower CO2 emissions than most family saloons. They get the environment green light, but are just about the only vehicle in the range that does and you wont get one for £5k.

I do appreciate that people take thier vehicles off-road on occasion, or live on farms, or long ways down dirt tracks in the sticks, and that's fine (if you really, really do), I have no issue with those folks. But that's not this chaps spot. He wants a town vehicle, a luggage humper and a shopping trolley, with the ability to hump his load to the edge of the woods on a weekend. Is that honestly landrover teritory?

Shouldnt bushcrafters be encouraging the protection of the environment, rather than the destruction of it? Or am I missing something?

I think "bushcraft vehicle" is an oxymoron, with the only answers being..

walk
paddle
ride

 

[Martyn]

I do love landrovers though.

 

[bogflogger]

Martyn you are Absolutely right, the idea of a "Bushcraft Vehicle" is a Joke!

The idea that you can be "enviromentally sensitive" whilst Bushcrafting and then jump into a Heavily Polluting, Fuel Guzzling, Overkill Vehicle, for a trip of X miles (in both directions) is an Amazing Feat of Self-delusion!

I would guess, even here on BCUK, less than 10% of the membership actually NEED a 4WD vehicle.

Apart from the ability to haul masses of Unnesscary Equipment, into places where vehicles should not be (you CAN park up and walk in!) a Landy or similar, is nothing but a Polluting, Inefficent, Poseurs toy.

 

[British Red]

An interesting debate this - although perhaps I will be a little off topic here. perhaps I can challenge the perception of Landrovers as monsters to the environment:

Some obeservations for your consideration:

1. A more severe environmental problem

British emissions of C02 from aircraft, expressed in millions of tons of carbon, shot up from 4.6 million tons in 1990 to 8.8 million tons in 2000. But based on predicted air passenger transport growth figures - from 180 million passengers per year today to 476 million passengers per year by 2030 - they are expected to rise to 17.7 million tons in 2030.

Aircraft emissions that go directly into the stratosphere have more than twice the global warming effect of emissions from cars and power stations at ground level and, based on the Government's own calculations, the effect of the 2030 emissions will be equivalent to 44.3 million tons of carbon - 45 per cent of Britain's expected emissions total at that date.

(source : The energy bulletin )

It is arguable therefore that a city dweller who complains about the environmental impact of a Landrover and then takes a foreign holiday travelling by air is in fact guilty of having a far higher environmental impact. Can I suggest that anyone planning to fly abroad on a bushcraft trip recognises and realises that the impact of that is hugely significant - at least as much as an occasional use Landrover

2. Carbon Neutrality
There are two ways of making your sricing carbon neutral - directly or indirectly. The direct approach is to use biodiesel. In effect burning vegetable oil in your vehicle. The CO2 released by burning this fuel was captured from the environment as the plant in question grew - no net production or release of CO2 occurs. The indirect or offsetting method means that you re-capture the CO2 released by your vehicle by (and this is the great bit) planting trees. Organisations are willing to do this on your behalf - see here:
Carbon Neutral

3 - Cost of Production
By cost of production, I mean the carbon cost. Do you know how much energy was expended in making your vehicle? Or how long it will last? An interesting fact about Landrovers is that over 70% of Landrovers ever built in the last 40 years are still on the road - I doubt the same is true of, say, Ford. The impacts of their short life vehicles must be included in the carbon footprint calculation


So, why do I make these points? Simply that, as in all things, environmentalism is not as simple as it might at first appear. We have a Landrover, Landcruiser and estate car. We live on a farm and use both 4WD cars offroad. However, our Landrover is carbon neutral - so our our other cars. We do not use air flights for holidays or pleasure and only for work if there is no alternative. We heat our home using carbon neutral wood sources - not polluting gas or electricity. We buy food locally, use local (well) water and on site waste water treatment.

I suggest that a person driving a 1 litre Fiesta, taking package holidays abroad and heating their home with gas is having a lot more environmental impact than us!

Just a thought

Red

 

[bogflogger]

Which is why I decided 20 years ago:

1. Never to Fly Anywhere.
2. To use Public Transport.
3. To Cycle.
4. If theres no alternative to go by Motorbike.

As far as the rest of my enviromental footprint goes, I am extremely limited in my choices, as I live in a Council Flat.

 

[Toddy]

I've been watching this thread with interest since I'll need to replace my car soon.
I have to say though, I spend my working life driving along the motorway networks to remote or historical sites and when there I have to drive me, my colleague and all our kit down dirt tracks, up and down hill paths, through castles, woodlands and parks.
I've got a renault clio that's had wider wheels fitted (bought the car from my son's friend who'd done it up )
I haven't gotten stuck yet, even through a foot of snow, deep ruts and mud, the occasional burn , wet grass and forest paths.
And I still average over 40 miles to the gallon despite driving at 70mph much of the way to and from.
The bane of the roads just now are huge blindsiding gas guzzling 4WD's that lumber along driven by numpties who can't use them properly and wouldn't dare take them off road 'cos it'd scratch the paint

If you're flinging hordes of kids (or sheep, or feedstuff, or canoes and the like) in a vehicle that you will use in an area where you may very well need to get yourself out of a ditch, then a landie or similar is a very good thing.

Elsewise the environmental impact is simply a very selfish ego statement.
For most folks a reliable, cheap to run (low environmental impact) is by far the better option.

Sorry to rant folks but since the schools stopped all of the 4WD mummymobiles are out in force, I saw two of them fighting it out for a parking space yesterday that *neither* could get into but they totally blocked the entire main street in their determination that walking 50 metres was just too plebian :tapedshut In doing so they nearly ran down an elderly couple; the silly bint who finally clambered out's excuse was that she couldn't see them since she was so high up. The elderly gentleman obligingly offered to flatten her tyres to let her see things more clearly

Cheers,
Toddy

p.s. anyone got a five door Susuki Ignis? Plasticy interior is good for me, since rain, mud and grass is usually my lot

M

 

[British Red]

Bogflogger,

Excellent mate - I applaud (and rep) you. I must admit, I am unconvinced by the public transport argument (sometimes), but I think that is perhaps more due to its implementation than its aims. I have read stats for example that show that g of CO2 per passenger mile output by buses is significantly higher than that output by cars (mainly due to relatively low uptake and vehicles travelling nearly empty at many times of day).

I do believe though that the environmental argument against 4x4s is spurious. Where, for example, is the campaign against large engined sports cars? Towing caravans (Oh yeah - Top Gear )? Motorhomes?

Many of those campaigning against 4x4s fly abroad, don't recycle, don't offset their own carbon emissions, use air conditioning in cars, etc. etc.

Not only do they have no moral high ground in fact but they are living far less environmentally sound lives than those they criticise - physician - heal thyself

Red

Sorry for the thread hijack - just had to counter the argument that Landrovers are environmentally unfriendly - ignorance is the problem. My Landrover is a net remover of CO2 - so can anyone elses be with a little effort (as of course can every other car - but those who criticise 4x4 drivers have of course done their research and offset their own carbon footprint first - haven't they?)

 

[Toddy]

but those who criticise 4x4 drivers have of course done their research and offset their own carbon footprint first - haven't they?)

Well of course we have!

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[BorderReiver]

Sorry to rant folks but since the schools stopped all of the 4WD mummymobiles are out in force, I saw two of them fighting it out for a parking space yesterday that *neither* could get into but they totally blocked the entire main street in their determination that walking 50 metres was just too plebian :tapedshut In doing so they nearly ran down an elderly couple; the silly bint who finally clambered out's excuse was that she couldn't see them since she was so high up. The elderly gentleman obligingly offered to flatten her tyres to let her see things more clearly
Cheers,
Toddy

Nice one,glad I wasn't eating or drinking.

PS: I can't see the point in beating ourselves up over this.It'll all be the same in a 1000 years time.The planet will do what it has always done and adjust to whatever is happening.

One good eruption of a big volcano will make our lifetimes' pollution look a bit insignificant.

 

[Martyn]

So, why do I make these points? Simply that, as in all things, environmentalism is not as simple as it might at first appear. We have a Landrover, Landcruiser and estate car. We live on a farm and use both 4WD cars offroad. However, our Landrover is carbon neutral - so our our other cars. We do not use air flights for holidays or pleasure and only for work if there is no alternative. We heat our home using carbon neutral wood sources - not polluting gas or electricity. We buy food locally, use local (well) water and on site waste water treatment.

Providing you run biodiesel, that's fine Red - and good for you, but I bet you are in the minority. I'm not suggesting we all start riding horses, or even that people stop flying, just that we stop recommending the use of countryside chewing, fuel guzzling, CO2 dumping vehicles, when there are loads of perfectly adequate alternatives with a much smaller environmental footprint.

Just because Joe Ordinary dumps X tons of CO2 into the sky from his annual holiday, shouldnt be used as an excuse to be negligent ourselves, albeit on a lesser scale.

If you never, or hardly ever take your vehicle off-road (or you do on occasion just to justify owning it to yourself), and you dont use biodiesel, then maybe you should rethink the need for it.