Winter & mountain can make a difference. Alcohol stoves generally rely on the heat from burning to feed back into the body of the stove to increase the vapourization of the alcohol, making the jets "bloom". Icy temperatures typical of winter mountains make this difficult. The stove needs to be insulated from the cold ground. Stands like the Trangia kits (and the Clas Ohlson) do this, but at the cost of some bulk and weight (over a pound). Butane canister stoves don't work too well unless you keep the canister in a warm place (pocket, sleeping bag) or they have a v. large proportion of propane in the mixture. I seriously doubt you will find anything better than you SVEA 123 which is a legend in mountaineering circles. Lighter and less bulky maybe, but not better.
What is the best meths (alcohol) stove setup?
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I ditched the stove that came with mine and I use the Mini Atomic instead, the fuel bottle does like to flatten that other one. I managed to match up my old Terra Nova ti pot with the Tibetan 900 which happens to have a caldera cone kit, result
Spot on about Shug, but a lovely bloke too
Mini Bull Designs Questionable Mental Health Cook kit and Mini Atomic 2 stove, money well spent
There are a few dodges to extend the use of meths and gas stoves. Take the lightweight stoves for example, some take more heating to bloom than others due to more metal in them. An example of this is the whitebox stove. I've seen a video of someone doing a burn test with the WBS and another type of UL meths burner sat in cold water. The WBS took a lot longer to bloom since it is made up of a thicker Al drinks bottle not a lightweight drinks can.
Another trick it to use a wick type of tape or rope stuck with high temperature adhesive to the outside of the can or WBS meths burner. A few drops of meths on this lit once the main fuel is lit helps with the heating of the burner and speeds up the bloom. This is similar to using a primer pan. You could of course use the primer pan or make a tray up out of foil to do this.
Also warm up the meths before using it.
With gas you can also warm the can up prior to using it. Also different makes work better in colder conditions. My favourite is Primus 4 season gas. It is a propane/butane mix that IME give better cold weather capabilities and is also more efficient. I can get 6 days or more out of a 100g can compared to about 3 or 4 days with a Coleman can. I've also heard that MSR and Optimus gas are also good. However for real cold weather performance a remote can stove with a pre-heater tube is the best option. The pre-heat tube even allows a liquid feed. I had an old Go systems thermotech remote can and you got a slight flare up when you turned over the can for a while before it settled (about 1 or 2 seconds) as it switched to liquid feed. That stove is heavy but the Primus express spider and edelrid opilio are 198g and 178g respectively and both have the pre-heat tube. The Primus burner head is the same as their can top stove so is quite efficient for a non-heat exchange type stove. Another good cold weather/high altitude gas stove that has been reintroduced to the UK is the Coleman fyrestorm. Available in SS and titanium versions. This has a can attachment that inverts and holds the can upside down so it works only as a liquid gas feed. I have heard that it gives near multi fuel levels of performance in the cold and higher up. About the best you can get for sub zero temps out of a gas stove I reckon even if it does weigh a bit.
If it was my choice for real cold weather I would go for a remote can gas stove for the UK use although I use a can top without much issue down to zero. Yet to use one much below zero. Used a trangia at -7C and couldn't get a pot of water to the boil wasn't impressed but I suspect part of it's performance was due to my lack of knowledge of meths stoves at the time.
A new meths stove out is the Rodir stove. It has wire legs that supports your pot and also lifts thee burner off the ground. Perhaps this would help with the heating as it is not in much contact with cold ground during the heating stage so perhaps it will bloom better and faster in cold conditions. I am tempted to get one but I am torn between a caldera cone (for my AGG 3cup pot, for my Vargo Ti-lite pot or a complete caldera F-keg pt/stove setup) and the rodir stove. I am sure the caldera is more efficient but the Rodir is cheaper and looks a really good burner too with a good design. Since it has only been out since February there is not out there in the way of impartial reviews.
Another trick it to use a wick type of tape or rope stuck with high temperature adhesive to the outside of the can or WBS meths burner. A few drops of meths on this lit once the main fuel is lit helps with the heating of the burner and speeds up the bloom. This is similar to using a primer pan. You could of course use the primer pan or make a tray up out of foil to do this.
Also warm up the meths before using it.
With gas you can also warm the can up prior to using it. Also different makes work better in colder conditions. My favourite is Primus 4 season gas. It is a propane/butane mix that IME give better cold weather capabilities and is also more efficient. I can get 6 days or more out of a 100g can compared to about 3 or 4 days with a Coleman can. I've also heard that MSR and Optimus gas are also good. However for real cold weather performance a remote can stove with a pre-heater tube is the best option. The pre-heat tube even allows a liquid feed. I had an old Go systems thermotech remote can and you got a slight flare up when you turned over the can for a while before it settled (about 1 or 2 seconds) as it switched to liquid feed. That stove is heavy but the Primus express spider and edelrid opilio are 198g and 178g respectively and both have the pre-heat tube. The Primus burner head is the same as their can top stove so is quite efficient for a non-heat exchange type stove. Another good cold weather/high altitude gas stove that has been reintroduced to the UK is the Coleman fyrestorm. Available in SS and titanium versions. This has a can attachment that inverts and holds the can upside down so it works only as a liquid gas feed. I have heard that it gives near multi fuel levels of performance in the cold and higher up. About the best you can get for sub zero temps out of a gas stove I reckon even if it does weigh a bit.
If it was my choice for real cold weather I would go for a remote can gas stove for the UK use although I use a can top without much issue down to zero. Yet to use one much below zero. Used a trangia at -7C and couldn't get a pot of water to the boil wasn't impressed but I suspect part of it's performance was due to my lack of knowledge of meths stoves at the time.
A new meths stove out is the Rodir stove. It has wire legs that supports your pot and also lifts thee burner off the ground. Perhaps this would help with the heating as it is not in much contact with cold ground during the heating stage so perhaps it will bloom better and faster in cold conditions. I am tempted to get one but I am torn between a caldera cone (for my AGG 3cup pot, for my Vargo Ti-lite pot or a complete caldera F-keg pt/stove setup) and the rodir stove. I am sure the caldera is more efficient but the Rodir is cheaper and looks a really good burner too with a good design. Since it has only been out since February there is not out there in the way of impartial reviews.
Isn't part of the caldera cone is that the burner is tuned to the cone which is tuned to the pot used. From what I have read about that system is the pot sits in the cone which is made to thee best size to hold the pot stable and at the right height above the burner which is tweaked a bit to give the best burn for the cone (perhaps the jets are different for different pot cones). Not sure how much difference it makes but do wonder if you lose some performance if you replaced a damaged 12-10 stove that comes with the cone with a homemade or another can stove such as the one AGG make and sell with their cooksets. I guess the mini atomic is a better burner than a simple can burner as IIRC it is semi or fully pressurised meths stove.
I have a remote feed MBD meths burner (won it in a competition I hadn't realised I'd entered). It needs a good pot support and windshield to use it as it is basically a wick type where the stove looks like a brush with a tube coming out of the base. I wonder if a caldera cone would work with it. I could get a cone for my vargo ti-lite pot and used that burner with it as it is pretty light.
BTW avoid the mini trangia as it is 330g and you still need to add a windshield to that as the stand does not provide the burner with wind resistance at all. If you are looking for a way of using a trangia burner then I'd find some light stand for it (does the tatonka one fit the trangia burner) and use a foil windshield separately. The mini trangia is not a good choice in my experience. I got a clone for £10 so I'm not bothered as it meant I got a reasonable trangia type burner for a little more than thee burner with a half decent pot (little heavy) and still got the option of using the whole kit too. Not bad for a tenner but I'd not want to spend the full amount for thee proper Trangia version.
I have a remote feed MBD meths burner (won it in a competition I hadn't realised I'd entered). It needs a good pot support and windshield to use it as it is basically a wick type where the stove looks like a brush with a tube coming out of the base. I wonder if a caldera cone would work with it. I could get a cone for my vargo ti-lite pot and used that burner with it as it is pretty light.
BTW avoid the mini trangia as it is 330g and you still need to add a windshield to that as the stand does not provide the burner with wind resistance at all. If you are looking for a way of using a trangia burner then I'd find some light stand for it (does the tatonka one fit the trangia burner) and use a foil windshield separately. The mini trangia is not a good choice in my experience. I got a clone for £10 so I'm not bothered as it meant I got a reasonable trangia type burner for a little more than thee burner with a half decent pot (little heavy) and still got the option of using the whole kit too. Not bad for a tenner but I'd not want to spend the full amount for thee proper Trangia version.
Horses for courses. The Rolls Royce of alcohol stoves is undoubtedly the Optimus Trapper - there simply is no better set. Long burn, ultra-safe as even upsetting it won't throw burning alcohol around, and one of the only ones that has a simmer function - and of those few, the only one that works perfectly! But it is considerably bigger than a cat-tin stove, so not the best for the ultra-lighters!
Best value? Again, undoubtedly the Clas Ohlsen kit - decent-sized pans and frying pan, windshield, pot-lifter and a much lighter (and quicker blooming) version of the civvy Trangia burner (with simmer ring, no less!) Also just noticed that the Clas Ohlsen burner has a monster of a sealing ring as well, so can also be put away with alcohol in it - no need to go through all the hassle of pouring stuff back into your bottle. And all for less that 10 quid. Next best value is the Swedish Army "trangia" set (the aluminium one, not the stainless steel - overkill).
Lightweight? Cheapest is a d-i-y coke-can stove or cat-tin cat or supercat stove - cost zilch and can be made in 10 minutes. But they are not very strong, and need windshields, stands, pots etc.
Just got an Etowah 11 stove from the US -there's a really good youtube of it if you want details. Had a quick play tonight, and it seems to stack up with the claims in the video. Also got a 20+minute burn out of it too...
Best value? Again, undoubtedly the Clas Ohlsen kit - decent-sized pans and frying pan, windshield, pot-lifter and a much lighter (and quicker blooming) version of the civvy Trangia burner (with simmer ring, no less!) Also just noticed that the Clas Ohlsen burner has a monster of a sealing ring as well, so can also be put away with alcohol in it - no need to go through all the hassle of pouring stuff back into your bottle. And all for less that 10 quid. Next best value is the Swedish Army "trangia" set (the aluminium one, not the stainless steel - overkill).
Lightweight? Cheapest is a d-i-y coke-can stove or cat-tin cat or supercat stove - cost zilch and can be made in 10 minutes. But they are not very strong, and need windshields, stands, pots etc.
Just got an Etowah 11 stove from the US -there's a really good youtube of it if you want details. Had a quick play tonight, and it seems to stack up with the claims in the video. Also got a 20+minute burn out of it too...
No mate both the 100g cans. Don't use the 250g cans as I am never that far from re-supply and usually can use a 100g and replace it so not carrying the larger can only one 100g can. Plus for most trips it is an overnighter or a long weekend which at most is part of a 100g primus can or one coleman 100g can.
AFAIK most gas can makers supply in something like 100g, 250g, 450g and possibly a bigger one too. There are some odd ones who do say 125g instead of the 100g cans. Although I'm not sure if the can weight is the weight of the gas or the gas and the can combined. One day I'll actually start getting more scientific about the gas use and weigh it before and after trips and record the burn time/number of times. Would be of interest I reckon at least to me and better estimation of gas useage/need.
Bulk? two saucepans, kettle, hurricane proof windshield = bulk? just take one pan. I understand what you are saying but I prefer that I dictate my diet and meals rather than any stove. I've made some pop can stoves and they are fun, used the Cone and it was fun but I prefer the master of all trades rather than a one horse wonder.
Imagedude, you should look at something like an Omnifuel or older Nova for your winter needs although thousands of Scandinavian folk seem to survive well on the original Trangia, (you are in the minority really who don't get by on the standard setup) and in conditions far harsher than the UK, but then they have used them for a long time and winter camp way more than the majority of BCUK members.
Look at the Omnifuel.
I had an early Nova but I don't trust the quick release connector so I went back to the trusty Svea.
Richard - I know trangias are well made and have a lot of support from people. Also as a complete system it is well put together. I just think it doesn't really match the criteria for a lightweight brew kit which was what the poster was about I think once he clarified what he wants. It is a complex point the stove/pot/windshield system and which is best as it goes a lot on opinion and how you want to use your system. I have never got on with the full trangia system for many reasons but others do. Does that mean either are right or wrong.
The only thing you can be sure of is that the lightest trangia IIRC is about 760g and the pack size is quite big. I go backpacking and with food for a week would need a bigger (and heavier) pack than I carry now if I took the trangia kit. I also take a brew kit on day walks and even for evening potters locally. I use a very small daypack on those which quite simply would not fit a trangia in. My brew kit can simply consist of a WBS and a AGG 3 cup pot with either a plastic or Ti mug. I can fit the WBS with the windshield, base/reflector and fuel bottle inside the mug in my side pocket leaving the pot to go inside my sack with something inside it. Heck I reckon I could fit it all in my 3 litre inov8 bumbag if I wanted to together with a waterproof and snacks. That makes for a nice brew kit and local potter kit. Can't do that with a trangia or a svea I reckon. If the OP is looking for a similar use as I have for my kit then he to would not find the trangia that useful I think.
As far as food goes this is a brew kit the OP is looking for so simmer rings and really long burn times for cooking is not needed perhaps. It is a simple case of boiling water for as little effort as possible. Effort at time of using the kit and effort to get it to where you are brewing up. Also things like pack size and weight might be important.
The only thing you can be sure of is that the lightest trangia IIRC is about 760g and the pack size is quite big. I go backpacking and with food for a week would need a bigger (and heavier) pack than I carry now if I took the trangia kit. I also take a brew kit on day walks and even for evening potters locally. I use a very small daypack on those which quite simply would not fit a trangia in. My brew kit can simply consist of a WBS and a AGG 3 cup pot with either a plastic or Ti mug. I can fit the WBS with the windshield, base/reflector and fuel bottle inside the mug in my side pocket leaving the pot to go inside my sack with something inside it. Heck I reckon I could fit it all in my 3 litre inov8 bumbag if I wanted to together with a waterproof and snacks. That makes for a nice brew kit and local potter kit. Can't do that with a trangia or a svea I reckon. If the OP is looking for a similar use as I have for my kit then he to would not find the trangia that useful I think.
As far as food goes this is a brew kit the OP is looking for so simmer rings and really long burn times for cooking is not needed perhaps. It is a simple case of boiling water for as little effort as possible. Effort at time of using the kit and effort to get it to where you are brewing up. Also things like pack size and weight might be important.
Etowah 11 video on youtube - worth a view. Can't comment on how it performs in snow like the video, but other than that I can support his findings..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylpz_3SsymY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylpz_3SsymY&feature=related
Don't forget to factor in the weight of the fuel and Meths's relatively low CV for a fuel.So you might have a very light stove made from TI or what not but if you have a Litre of Meths's then the saving in Saving in stove weight is a bit negated.
With meths fuel for a brew kit you take just enough in a small and light bottle. Even with the low CV for meths you still save on total fuel weight due no can to carry and only the fuel needed. I have a tiny bottle that probably holds about 35 to 55ml in it which is enough for me to make two brews in one go or one brew at a time but twice. In the cold I fill the bottle completely in the cold it is slightly empty. If on my own and only planning one brew stop then about half full.
I think in order to take full weight advantage of any system you have to assess your fuel needs and where able only carry your needs. If you look at weight of stove kit and fuel versus number of days out you get a stepwise increase in weight as the days out goes up in most fuel/stove combinations. This is especially so with gas as you are limited to about 100g, 250g and 450g cans. AS you are nearing the full amount of gas in a particular can you are getting closer to the highest efficiency for that gas fuel. In reality you are probably not going to need that much fuel of any type in UK as re-supply is so good if travelling around. Whatever the fuel and system it is always best to match the amount of fuel to your expected needs. That is through experience.
I think in order to take full weight advantage of any system you have to assess your fuel needs and where able only carry your needs. If you look at weight of stove kit and fuel versus number of days out you get a stepwise increase in weight as the days out goes up in most fuel/stove combinations. This is especially so with gas as you are limited to about 100g, 250g and 450g cans. AS you are nearing the full amount of gas in a particular can you are getting closer to the highest efficiency for that gas fuel. In reality you are probably not going to need that much fuel of any type in UK as re-supply is so good if travelling around. Whatever the fuel and system it is always best to match the amount of fuel to your expected needs. That is through experience.
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