What are the firearm laws like in your country? Do you agree with them? Why?

[Tantalus]

I gotta say I am fairly happy with gun laws in the UK

Someone with good reasons to own a gun and with suitable storage can do so.

Subject to police inspection and review.

Where it starts to fall down is that criminals are notorious for not obeying the laws ( i think i just said the same thing twice :shock: )

Manpower in the police force limits the number and frequency of inspections, and manpower again allows criminals to obtain and carry unregistered weapons.

Mostly these weapons only come to the authorities attention once they are fired, by which time it is too late to prevent the "gun crime" happening. ( i think i just said the same thing twice again :shock: )

Handguns? I dont really see a use for them apart from shooting people which in my humble opinion is not good enough to allow their circulation generally.

Yes I carried a 9mm pistol while working as a security guard abroad. I still do not think it is the kind of weapon that an annoyed civilian should be able to produce in public.

Semi automatic shotguns on the other hand are popular because they give less recoil. These are legal (with a shotgun certificate) in the UK but limited to 3 shots, one in the breech and 2 in the magazine. If i remember correctly , unmodified they used to be able to hold 7 cartridges

Tant

 

[Lurch]

Now we should really get back onto the subject of firearms laws and whether people agree with them or not and try to stay away from discussion of the pro's and cons of military weapon licensing.

Trouble is of course it is somewhat difficult to separate the two.
i.e.
In Blighty under firearms law one cannot purchase a semi-auto ar-15 (similar to M16). I don't agree with this because blah blah blah (as previously posted by me).
So that's a firearms law I don't agree with AND a discussion of the pro's and cons of military weapon licensing. :?:

 

[Lurch]

Yes I carried a 9mm pistol while working as a security guard abroad. I still do not think it is the kind of weapon that an annoyed civilian should be able to produce in public.

There's been a couple of references to this concept that people will have shoot-outs over road rage/parking disputes. In the US this argument comes out everytime a State discusses Shall Issue/Concealed Carry permits.

In each case where a State passes a Shall Issue law, car park shoot-outs are conspicuous by their absence.

 

[Tantalus]

Actually i really enjoyed firing pistols (on the range i had better add)

I was even pretty effective with it

But in all honesty, apart from people, what else would you shoot with a handgun?

In the UK we do not have large animals like bears and boar. Most likely even a good shot would take several shots to finish either of these with a hangun anyway.

I think the issue of carrying something designed to hurt people is more at issue here than the road rage / car park scenario

As i say, i liked shooting the pistol but dont think i could justify carrying one as a private citizen

Tant

 

[Buckshot]

But in all honesty, apart from people, what else would you shoot with a handgun?
Tant

Targets :shock:
That's what I did.

 

[Ridge Runner]

yeh i have a question.. what percentage of people in maine do carry a gun on their belt/on their person all the time, or when going about their lives in public places etc..?

Very few. Probably 1-2% carry a handgun on a regular basis with a permit for protection. I think that in the United States of America only about 1-2% of the country carries a handgun with a permit. In Vermont, you do not need a permit at all. You just need to produce a drivers license. They have the lowest violent crime rate in the country.

I think that out of the 50 states in the U.S. 30 are "shall issue" states. Meaning that if you are a law abiding citizen, you WILL get a permit to carry a firearm.

A great site that explains all the concealed carry firearms laws state by state in this country is:

www.packing.org

There is no centralized registration of firearms here but there is a criminal background check for every store purchase. Local gunshops keep paperwork at their locations. They are only required to submit the paperwork to the government if they close or to help with an investigation.

You do not need to belong to a gun club or show a need to buy a firearm. You do need to be of a certain age however.

You can walk into a gunstore, buy a semi-automatic rifle with ammo, and leave in about 15 minutes if your background check clears.

Most households in Maine own at least one firearm. Many people carry a shotgun or rifle in the trunk of their car. There are many rugged individualists in the state, especially in the northern rural parts of the state. A majority of Maine residents firmly believe in our 2nd Amendment which provides the right to own firearms. They believe it is an individual right.

My wifes Grandfather is 90 years old and lives alone in a little log cabin in the northern part of the state. He grows and cans his own food and went deer hunting till he was 80 years old! He shot a bear two years ago that was trying to get into his home with a rifle. The bear was a small one, only 4 years old and about 260 pounds. He remembers when you could by machine guns at the corner store or by mail. He also remembers bringing his rifle to his rural high school with him and keeping it slung over his chair during class because he would go hunting with several friends and teachers after school. It was common for students to bring rifles to class, leave them in the corner unattended till the end of the day with no problems. Now firearms are prohibited on school property anywhere in the state.

Despite all the firearms available, violent crime is very low. I think we had 20 murders last year out of 1.2 million people (some of those were by people who came in from out of the state to commit their crime). In addition, I think we had 13 firearms deaths due to hunting accidents.

These are the laws in my state. The laws in other states vary greatly.

 

[Lurch]

He shot a bear two years ago that was trying to get into his home with a rifle.

:yikes:
The bear had a rifle?
:rolmao:

 

[Tantalus]

but we no longer have bears in this country

and " I need a pistol in case my home gets attacked by Rabbits" doesnt have the same ring to it somehow

Tant

 

[Ridge Runner]

:yikes:
The bear had a rifle?
:rolmao:

We have some mean bears here in Maine. :rolmao:

Sorry about that..

 

[Ridge Runner]

but we no longer have bears in this country

and " I need a pistol in case my home gets attacked by Rabbits" doesnt have the same ring to it somehow

Tant

I know, but home invasions do happen here and people are mugged and killed in public places. Hence why I carry a pistol. I plan on making it home. I do not consider defenselessness a virtue.

 

[Tantalus]

mebbe thats a difference between us then

i have never felt defenceless in my life

in fact when i did carry a pistol i was more of a target than at any other time, but thats what they paid me for........... :shock:

Tant

 

[alick]

...Handguns? I dont really see a use for them apart from shooting people which in my humble opinion is not good enough to allow their circulation generally.

Yes I carried a 9mm pistol while working as a security guard abroad. I still do not think it is the kind of weapon that an annoyed civilian should be able to produce in public...

Tant

Hi Tantalus, I'm interested in your thoughts on this as a one time target shooter who used a variety of pistols between .22 and .45 calibre before they were banned.

Is it general freedom of ownership that you object to as described in the state of Maine, or could you live with the controlled access that allows people to own pistols for target shooting as in the UK before the handgun ban ?

There's a long history of practicing martial arts for sport and recreation that obviously had it's origins in the need to fight / defend yourself. I totally agree that pistols were invented for use in close quarters combat against people and that no one who ever uses one for sport should ever forget it, but the same goes for fencing and potentially a number of the eastern unarmed combat disciplines. To those who support an outright ban I would ask "should we prohibit those too ?"

I could also argue that archery ought to be banned the same way. Since it is illegal to hunt with a bow these days in the UK, doesn't that mean that bows no longer have any legitimate use and should likewise be prohibited.

I do understand the argument you make that "an annoyed civilian" should not be able to produce a pistol (or whatever) in public, but target shooters were never allowed to carry pistols in public except for unloaded and secure transport between home and the range. If they were carrying as you imply, that very act would have made them criminals and just as liable for prosecution as any other lawbreaker if they were stopped and questioned.

One of the thing I perceive among the bushcraft community is that we are share a common interest in practicing and developing traditional skills that no longer have any logical place in the modern world. We do this for our own personal development and well-being. I have a similar attitude to the shooting sports. They are not necessary, but we benefit as individuals through practicing them. They are not forgiving of mistakes. They help to develop discipline and self control in the people who would practice them. They demand concentration and an acute awareness of the immediate surroundings. They require time and commitment to master. They are social as well as competitive.

As an aside - there is surely the need to be proportionate when we make decisions.

Beyond the headline cases of Hungerford and Dunblane, there is little evidence of legitimately owned guns being used in violent crime - it would have been very much in the interests of the politicians and police to produce this evidence to justify their positions and yet they singularly failed to do so.

This being the case, I have never agreed that controlled civilian ownership of guns posed a significant threat - in contrast there would surely be many people still alive today if the £100M+ cost of the handgun ban had been given instead to the NHS.

I'm sorry in a way to bounce back at you on this - I've been trying to stay out of the debate. This was a big issue for me at the time and totally changed my attitudes to politicians, the media and certain sections of the police force.

It is enlightening to become a minority within your society and have your views totally disregarded for no justifiable reason - only someone else's political advantage.

Please be assured it's absolutely nothing personal

over :biggthump

 

[Tantalus]

sorry for taking so long to answer Allick

you ask a lot of really deep questions, many of which may have no answers

I guess I am happy to see handguns out of general circulation just from a safety point of view. I realise this guarantees nothing but having had several loaded weapons pointed at me at various times i think a handgun is my least favourite because it is so easy to conceal

Controlled access to handguns, well they certainly have a "wow I would like one of these" factor, for those who have used them

Perhaps this alone singles them out for stricter control

I see martial arts as a little different somehow, long hours of training and discipline being required. Also arent most martial arts primarily defensive? (Even if they use attack as the best defence)

First rule of self defence as I know it is to keep your eyes and ears open and try not to get into a situation where force is necessary.

I guess what I am saying is, the handgun ban in the UK may not be ideal , but I can live with it. I dont NEED a handgun and I dont think there are many people who do.

Tant

 

[tenbears10]

I guess what I am saying is, the handgun ban in the UK may not be ideal , but I can live with it. I dont NEED a handgun and I dont think there are many people who do.

Tant

I don't want to stir this up again (but I'm going to slightly).

The problem with using NEED as the justification for control is that most of the population (I can't put it as a % because I don't know but you will agree that we are a minority) don't NEED a fixed blade knife, or an axe, or a bill hook. This is where the minority lose the right to own and use things which have been perfectly legal for many years.

Need is a very tricky thing to classify.

The end result of the handgun ban is that they are more prevelant in this country than before the ban. It may have given the illusion that many have been taken out of circulation and therefore criminals can't steal them from licenced owners but criminals now have and use more handguns than before the ban so it didn't work simple as that.

As has been said before criminals don't obey laws banning things it is their job not to.

Tant this is not directed at you personally but I think the veiw you hold that the ban was a success is a common misconception perpetuated by the goverment.

Bill

 

[Tantalus]

lol no quite the contrary

i think the handgun ban has been particularly inneffective

as will Jack McConnells' proposed sword ban in Scotland be

criminals have a bad habit of not obeying the law

but a sword may prove to be a little easier to spot than a handgun :roll:

nothing personal taken honest

my main worry is that people start to think they "need" to carry a handgun because they may be attacked with a handgun

this kind of logic lead to the cold war and i do not particularly agree with it

as Alick pointed out, perhaps it is better to appear unarmed with empty hands

Tant

 

[tenbears10]

Phew, glad you didn't take offence.

Bill

 

[Ridge Runner]

mebbe thats a difference between us then

i have never felt defenceless in my life

in fact when i did carry a pistol i was more of a target than at any other time, but thats what they paid me for........... :shock:

Tant

I know what you mean. I carried a pistol and shotgun for work for a couple of years. I worked for an Armored car company. I always felt naked without having a pistol on me in large crowds after I quit the job.

I do not "need" a pistol. I, at times, want to carry one because in my judgement I would rather have one and not need it, than need it and not have it. I do not mean to imply that most people "need" one to be protected - far from it. There are a lot of people I know that I would prefer not to have one, but they do.

I was just brought up with the "rock solid" belief by my parents, both mother and father, that the true mark of a free country is the ability of its "common people" to own arms in a manner that they see fit. It has been proven here time and time again, that states that have concealled carry laws have a lower violent crime rate then states who do not allow concealled handguns.

The states in this country that have the highest gun crime rate are the ones with the strictest gun control laws.

Again, I realize that this is an American tradition and not held by a lot of other countries. I am just trying to understand how people feel in other countires about it for perspective and questions.

We all have our differences, I am just trying to learn what it is like in other countries. This is the first "international forum" I have ever participated in and I really want to learn.

The last thing that I want to do is reinforce any negative sterotypes that people have of "Americans."

I do not mean to imply anything or offend. I apologize if I have or do so in the future.

 

[Buckshot]

No need to apologise RR - no offence taken

Cheers

Mark

 

[Quill]

Interesting comments here. I live in Arizona which has very loose gun laws. I posses around ten guns. Two of which are revolvers. My 15yr. old son has a 12ga. shotgun. He has never "played" with my guns. Doesn't touch them without permission. Yes he was taught to shoot a long time ago. I see the problems mainly stemming from poor education and improper peer guidence. No adult says that they would like to "blow some one away." He knows that is not an answer to a problem. I can carry a gun to town if I want to, as long as it is visiable I do not need a concealed carry permit. At various times you will see a hunter in the grocery store with a hand gun belted on. If you see someone walking down the street wearing one, it usually means they just moved here. Kind of bad form to carry if not using it. When I hike in the desert i carry one my revolvers. If you ever had a mountain lion stalk you, you would understand. There is a lot of crime in this state, much of it by illegals who are not allowed firearms. If all guns were removed they would still have access. As a machinest, not quite tool and die maker, I could make guns if I chose too. Would others do this? Well how much is gun worth to a criminal? High prices could be charged for making firearms. It is the same with narcotics. Do I feel safer from "bad guys" by owning a gun? That is not the reason I own them. By the way some of this states gun laws go back to the 19th century. You can be required not to carry a gun into an establishment, but they have to provide a secure place to leave it. Kind of a coat check system. Most stores ignore this law. They set a poor example by not obeying laws, the same way crimminals do. And yes I can carry my rifle in a rack in the back window of my truck. Do I? Heck no, some one would steel it or the thing would hit me in the head in an accident.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Interesting comments here. I live in Arizona which has very loose gun laws. I posses around ten guns. Two of which are revolvers. My 15yr. old son has a 12ga. shotgun. He has never "played" with my guns. Doesn't touch them without permission. Yes he was taught to shoot a long time ago. I see the problems mainly stemming from poor education and improper peer guidence. No adult says that they would like to "blow some one away." He knows that is not an answer to a problem. I can carry a gun to town if I want to, as long as it is visiable I do not need a concealed carry permit. At various times you will see a hunter in the grocery store with a hand gun belted on. If you see someone walking down the street wearing one, it usually means they just moved here. Kind of bad form to carry if not using it. When I hike in the desert i carry one my revolvers. If you ever had a mountain lion stalk you, you would understand. There is a lot of crime in this state, much of it by illegals who are not allowed firearms. If all guns were removed they would still have access. As a machinest, not quite tool and die maker, I could make guns if I chose too. Would others do this? Well how much is gun worth to a criminal? High prices could be charged for making firearms. It is the same with narcotics. Do I feel safer from "bad guys" by owning a gun? That is not the reason I own them. By the way some of this states gun laws go back to the 19th century. You can be required not to carry a gun into an establishment, but they have to provide a secure place to leave it. Kind of a coat check system. Most stores ignore this law. They set a poor example by not obeying laws, the same way crimminals do. And yes I can carry my rifle in a rack in the back window of my truck. Do I? Heck no, some one would steel it or the thing would hit me in the head in an accident.

Quill -

I have family in Arizona.........

Good comments about kids and guns. I will be teaching my 5 year old to shoot in a year or so with a .22 or a bb gun. I honestly believe it is how the parents introduce firearms to a child that makes a difference. I grew up with firearms in my bedroom and never thought twice about it. I had my grandfathers 1917 Enfield rifle that was used in WWI leaning in the corner of my bedroom as long as I can remember. Never used it, just admired it.

Open carry is legal here in Maine also, but I have never seen someone do it in an urban or suburban area (except on the news once). In the rural part of the state there is quite often a hunter by the side of the road walking with a rifle in hand. The police chief in the largest city in Maine has stated that even though "open carry" legal he will still arrest you and "detain" your firearm as he sees fit. He has done this once already to a man who was carrying a handgun on his hip in a public area legally. Took the man about $1000 in legal fees to get it back.

I would never do it. You would just be begging for trouble.