weaving with vegetable fibres

[humblebumble]

Hi there

i'm new to the forum, obviously. i am a retired (ha!) road-protestor turned handweaver and i'm interested in how to make spinning fibres from vegetable materials commonly found in british forest such as ferns and nettles, hemp etc

i know how to card wool with hand/drum carders, and i can spin with a wheel or drop spindle. i can also weave, obviously

what i need to know is how one treats the raw vegetable material in order to break them down into fibres suitable for spinning.

i vaguely remember seeing a program on TV about this, and there;s no doubt a lot of soaking and bashing involved, but i can't be doing with a long drawn out process of trial and error, especially as i'm tied to a house for the best part of the summer and can't just go out and live in the woods

so, does anyone know of any online resource or book i can read to tell me how to prepare vegetable fibres?

i'm going to start searching the forums and links on this site, but i thought i might as well post a topic anyway to say hi

thanks in advance everyone

ps. i blog at weave4fun.blogspot.com

if weaving doesn't interest you, don't bother visiting, obviously

 

[sandbender]

Welcome to the forum.

I was interested to read about your 'rescuing' of old looms on your blog, this thread started by Robin Wood about the loss of traditional craft skills may be of interest to you.

If you can find the time, a tutorial about spinning with a drop spindle would be interesting.

 

[humblebumble]

hey, yeah, i never managed to rescue that loom i'm afraid, it was too far out of my way i'm afraid and we only had a wee car, but never mind.

looms get abandoned a lot i think. that's where i got my first table loom and also a 4 shaft Dryad floor loom.

i think social attitudes to reckless consumerism are changing gradually though.

i'm growing interested in primitive weaving techniques however. warp weighted looms, horizontal floor pegged weaving frames and such. being in britain limits your options as far as outdoor weaving goes, because the weather's so unpredictable you always need a shelter no matter how good the weather looks. i envy people that can set a loom up outside and just leave it there for weeks without it getting waterlogged and rotting into the mulch.

a big ambtion of mine is to turn up at a site somewhere and build a shaft loom with reed and batten (basically a standard european pre-industrial loom) from forest timber and salvaged industrial waste (fencing wire, fence posts, steel plating, that kind of thing). bascially the sort of thing anyone could build without having to learn a whole load of carpentry.

for people interested in weaving, tablet weaving is a good place to start, as you don't have to invest in any equipment hardly at all. the shedding mechanism consists of a set of cards, either made of card, wood, bone, metal, leather or whatever with 4 holes drilled in them. very simple. you can make them out of old CD, or beermats for that matter. but i use linen coated playing cards.

tablet woven bands were very popular amongs viking for hems and collar, cuffs, that sort of thing, as decorative borders basically. i think some roman soldiers used to make them while on campaign as they're very portable. i can turn up pretty much anywhere on earth and start weaving in 5 minutes with the warp stretched between myself and a tree, rock or lamppost. whatever really. it's similar to backstrap weaving in that way, but a lot simple. backstrap weaving with a rigid heddle coincidentally is a very good way of making rag rugs or knotted pile rugs outside during the summer, and it makes a fantastic spectacle if you do it in the town centre. everybody seems to love weaving

as far as spinning goes, i'm really not the person to be writing tutorials on drop spindle spinning, as i'm not very good at it. i say i can do it, because i have. but not very much, and not very well. spinning isn't really my thing. i just do it for the sake of completeness in fibre craft. really i should learn to cut fabric and make simple garments as well, but i don't have a decent table, or an iron, which limits me somewhat.

i've had a wee look for spinning tutorial on google, but haven't had any luck yet. youtube's probably a better bet, but i can't use it on this clunking dino-PC.

i do go on a bit

 

[sandbender]

being in britain limits your options as far as outdoor weaving goes, because the weather's so unpredictable you always need a shelter no matter how good the weather looks.

Lots of sun over here

more

as far as spinning goes, i'm really not the person to be writing tutorials on drop spindle spinning, as i'm not very good at it. i say i can do it, because i have. but not very much, and not very well.

If you can make it to one of the Scottish Meets, I think Toddy and yourself will have much to talk about

 

[Eric_Methven]

No excuses not to make garments. For a table, all you need is a big bit of ply on a couple of trestles. For an iron, a smooth bottomed pan and a kettle of boiling water will do. Don't push the pan back and forth like a proper iron, just place it on the fabric and move it along to the next bit setting it down each time to make a crease. Time consuming, but not too much so. If you have a hot stove top, place a piece of tin foil on it and keep the pan ticking over by putting it on the tinfoil between ironing sessions. The tin foil will keep the bottom of the pan clean so you don't get a sooty deposit on the cloth.

If you want to make clothing patterns, old newspaper taped together will do, or for a pattern you may use regularly, do like I do and find some old end of roll vinyl cushioned flooring (like you'd use in a kitchen). I get scraps for pennies, or sometimes for nothing and you don't need massive pieces. They are generally white on the underside and that is what I use to make up all my patterns. That way they keep forever and can be reused time and time again. The material also lets you write notes and make cutting marks easily with a ball point pen.

To prepare natural fibres for spinning then weaving you generally have to rett it in running water until the outer fibre becomes gooey and can be removed. Then you'll need a breaking frame which is just some knife edged sticks in a frame with some other knife edged sticks in a top frame, hinged at one end so you chop the retted fibre between the sticks until they break up into long fibres. This works for flax, hemp, nettle and other plants. Then you need to comb the fibres that you have broken out on the frame. The combing jig is a plank with lots of nails sticking up in rows. You hold a handful of the broken out fibres and whack them down over the nails then draw them down to comb out. The fibres should look like a blonde wig when you are done. Comb one side of the bundle, then turn round and comb the other end.

It's complex to explain, and very time consuming to practice. You could always cheat and go to B&Q and get a packet of plumbers hemp. It is just ready combed hemp fibres that you can start spinning with straight away.

Welcome to the forum by the way.

Eric

 

[humblebumble]

sandbender: that is a plush loom. looks like the way the south american's backstrap weave, just on a frame. like it.

eric: point taken. maybe i need better excuses

only joking. seriously though, i'm off to study at a college that specialises in textile and fashion design, so as of september any lack of equipment will not be an issue at all

mind you, one shouldn't get enslaved by technology. though i am kind of a martyr to my floor loom

-andrew

ps. yeah, for the fibres. so, my understanding is that you get your nettle stalks, say, and leave them in the river, for instance, probably behind a wickerwork barrier to stop them flowing away, until the harder (am i right?) outside fibres have gone all soft and sludgy.

i presume you then have to remove the outer somehow, perhaps by rubbing the lot together in running water to wash it off, leaving only the inner fibres which you want.

and then you set up your box with two sets of bladed stick running parralel (?) above each other, stick the stalks in between and beat seven bells out of them until they're seperated into fibres.

the combing i understand.

thanks a lot, this is becoming a lot clearer now, i think i could contemplate giving it a shot without a tutor. is there any particular time of year that is best for picking the materials?

 

[Eric_Methven]

This is a flax breaker.

You see the top part? The blade interlocks into the bottom part, but just enough to break the fibres down rather than cut them. The retted flax goes across at right angles to the blades. August is about the right time to harvest flax and hemp.

If you are the person I think you are, I think I have a couple of lengths of your tablet weaving. Mary interceded in a swap for some wooden cards I made a couple of years back. Could that be you?

Eric

 

[humblebumble]

aaah right, i get it now. i think.

the blades run lengthways, and you put the stems in width ways and work along them. very nice. i must give that a go. i plan to be out of house and home in july and august, so that'll be the time to do it i think.

mind you, might do the festival again, it's definitely a really fun way to not make any money at all

as it goes, i still have those cards i think. they're better used on a board i think with low tension. i tend to weave at fairly high tension, which requires narrower cards. mind you, i must get round to going at those cards with a knife and some sandpaper again.

remind me which bands those were, what colours were they? i've sold off almost all of the tablet-band i made since leaving edinburgh, but i know i'd recognise any if i saw it. i remember doing that swap in the galgael in glasgow. lovely place. if anyone's passing through and wants to do some tapestry, they could really do with getting that tapestry of their's woven up.

i've got into knotted pile recently, and it's much more fun

 

[xylaria]

I grew my own linen fibres as an experiment. I got the flax seed from the health food shop. This type grows a little shorter than the flax seed that has been bred for fibre. It grows pretty quickly once it a had finished flowering (very pretty) and started to yellow slightly I pulled it up and put it in a bucket of rain water (lime in tap water can do something to the colour). I left for 2 weeks. The bucket completely stunk. Drained it off I can't remember if I rinsed or not. I then hung it on the line in the sun. Once it dried, I broke the straw like stuff off with a chair back. Basically grab either end and pull it back and forth. I then rinsed the fibre a lot and dried it.

Different batches of flax require different lenghts of time to rett. We could both grow exactly the same seed and have different retting lenghts because they would grow in different conditions. Over retted fibre breaks very easily, some flax can be ready in a few days some 2-3 weeks. When thieves tipped over my liquid green manure bin, the nettle that had been in there for months had turned to a silky looking thread, it was definitely less brittle than the linen fibres I made. Nettle certainly has promise for my next experiment. It is also easier to come by.

I got most of my information on retting from a dutch site I can't find now.

 

[humblebumble]

yes! nettles were definitely what i was thinking about when i posted this thread. i just love the idea of turning nettles into cloth. i'd get a kick out of that. i think all the new vegetable fibre yarns coming out of china are very interesting. soy bean fibre looks interesting. it occurs to me incidentally that you can get "milk protein" fibre, whatever that is. it makes me wonder if one could actually literally "weave yoghurt"

i can't be the only person here that gets that

 

[spamel]

Try bramble for an easy but strong cordage to make up. You'll get longer fibres too if you pick your brambles carefully! I don't know if you can ret them to make life easier, but PJMCBear and Goose (When he was still coming to meets. ) showed me a method whereby you remove the thorns and then scrape the bramble with the back of your knife to remove the outer 'bark'. As you keep scraping, fibres lift up and they twist up really well and into a good strong fibre. No doubt they could be stained with simple dyes such as crushed blackberry or similar to give contrasting fibres for use in weaving.

 

[xylaria]

Another experiment of mine was growing soya from beans bought from tescos. They aren't suitible for british climate and when they grew outside only grew to three foot, but inside on the windowsil they grew to 5-6 foot. Soy seed suitible for britain are availble from seed suppliers but their germination rate is very poor. They grow to this hieght in 10 -12 weeks. I used the plant it to tie up willow hoops to hold up a clotch. When the plant rotted a bit it left what looked like very long white silk. It was too brittle at this stage to anything with but it looked just like embroidary thread. Himbo has banned me from growing it again because it blocked light on the landing for 2 months and the beans were nasty.

The blackberry cordage looks like a very quick way of making string. PJMCBear seems to able to knock up large quantities in about an hour. The result looks like jute string.

 

[humblebumble]

soya bean fibre is very very nice indeed

 

[xylaria]

I was suprised how easy it was to grow. I sprouted the beans, and grew some on. The yeild for culinary perposes was awful, but I only found out about the fibre after I used the plant to tie the willow. I have to be sneaky to grow any this year.

 

[humblebumble]

i won't be able to grow anything this year, cos i'm out of the house in july, but i'm looking forward to doing something with nettles. it's amazing what you can grow in the windowsill isn't it?

 

[jimford]

Another experiment of mine was growing soya from beans bought from tescos. They aren't suitible for british climate and when they grew outside only grew to three foot, but inside on the windowsil they grew to 5-6 foot.

Yeah, right - 'soya beans'!

"Honestly Officer, I thought they were soya beans I was growing under lamps in the cellar!"
;^)

Jim

 

[xylaria]

Yeah, right - 'soya beans'!

"Honestly Officer, I thought they were soya beans I was growing under lamps in the cellar!"
;^)

Jim

How elderly people such as yourself choose to subsidise their pension is your own business. Soya is quite complicated to grow hydroponically if you ever wish to grow anything legitimate. It is very productive if you do manage it though, and it can make a lovely vegan silk substitute.

 

[harryhaller]

The yeild for culinary perposes was awful

In Japan, fresh soya beans are not eaten. They are fermented and then used in various ways. The fresh soya beans are supposedly bad for you!

Asians have traditional methods of preparing soy that involves inoculating soaked, cooked legumes like soy and creating traditional foods like miso, tempah, and natto. These fermented products have healthful traditional properties. Many of the benefits that are attributed to soy are based on studies of Asian populations that eat fermented soy products.

Fallon believes we should only eat fermented soy products. Until the changes caused by fermentation occur, soy is very high in the harmful phytic acid and enzyme inhibitors that prevent the assimilation of vital nutrients. High soy intake may lead to deficiencies in essential minerals and vitamins even though you are ingesting them in your diet or supplement form because they are blocked from absorbing through the gut wall. These bad guys are present in levels too high to be safely reduced by normal cooking and preparation methods. They may be responsible for the gastric problems (abdominal pain, bloating, gas, diarrhea or constipation) that many people experience when eating soy foods or soy milk. These problems are not present in fermented products, and they can usually be eaten safely by all but those with true soy protein allergies.

Soy has one more strike against it-the same chemicals that are supposed to make it healthy for peri-menopausal women! The isoflavones, genisten and daidzein that are being touted as cancer fighting might not be as attractive as they seem when you consider the tradeoff- they are potent inhibitors of thyroid function. Slowing down the thyroid can lead to chronic tiredness, hair loss, weight gain, constipation and other negative effects. Ingestion of too many thyroid inhibitors can tip those on the edge of hypothyroidism right down that slippery slope. (peanuts, uncooked broccoli and some other foods are also mildly goitrogenic, slowing third function) Incidence of goiter, or swelling of the thyroid gland that occurs when function is abnormal, have become relatively rare since most salts were fortified with iodine. In a post fan diet, when fresh salt water fish or iodized salt is in short supply or unavailable, I hypothesize we may be even more vulnerable to this negative effect.

High levels of pytoestrogens (plant chemicals that mimic mammalian estrogen hormone) may increase the risk of estrogen dependant cancers, such as common breast cancer. There are some reports in the medical literature that it may contribute to the feminization of men who ingest high levels, as their estrogen levels rise they gain weight and experience an increase in breast tissue mass. Although there is a paucity of research to verify Fallon’s concerns, neither is there much to disprove it. I’d say the jury is still out on the soy controversy, and I’ve decided to look at the risk/benefit ratio. As a result I don’t feel the benefits of the cheap protein outweigh a potential risk, and I’ve removed soy products from my storage plan and minimized my current dietary intake of unfermented soy.

 

[xylaria]

The japanese eat fresh soya beans cooked in their pods, the dish is called Edamame. Friggen horrid way of eating them, they grow two beans per hairy pod, and I grew about 20 pods in total, so even if they weren't implicated with men growing boobs and toddlers hitting puberty I wouldn't grow them for food again. They blocked out the light on a large window for 2 months to boot. They do grow a nice fine silky fibre though which is their only saving grace which is the only reason I would consider growing them for.

 

[harryhaller]

Edamame are the baby beans, before they grew up and gained nasty manners

Green soybeans in the pod are picked before they ripen. The ends of the pod may be cut before boiling or steaming.
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