Waterproof outer layer advice

[barrs]

Hello,

Looking for a bit of advice on this one, I wanted to test out my waterproof setup since the bad weather is coming in. Yesterday I went out for a 6-hour walk during some heavy rain (North Scotland) and every thing worked well - apart from my outer layer jacket. It's an older version of the Rab Alpine, and nearly 9 years old. I did expect it to leak a bit at the shoulders, but the whole thing was just like a sieve - time for a replacement I think!

When I was looking around the threads here, the Ridgeline classic smock looked great and is on sale with 50% off bringing it under my budget, sadly though they are out of stock. I also read that ex-military jackets like the Royal Navy MVP Gore-Tex jacket, or the M65 are great too, and also read to stay way from Gore-Tex if you want 100% waterproof, so confused! There seems to be a lot of options when it comes to the ex-military side of things, I feel a bit lost to be honest.

Would be great to get your advice and experiences with how the ex-military gear performance against the more "branded" gear? Should I be staying away from Gore-Tex? My budget would be around £100, give or take, but I can go higher if I know that the item is quality and would last for many years - I think I paid around £200 for the RAB on sale!

 

[Herman30]

My advice; stay away from all form of gore-tex and fancy schmancy brands and buy an old fashioned totally waterproof, cheap jacket.
Best rainjacket I have had is my current finnish army M13 rainjacket, totall rainproof with ventilation in armpits and on the back (covered with a flap).

 

[FerlasDave]

Goretex is absolutely the best thing you can use outdoors. But I would say the new stuff is not as hard wearing as the old. A decent tough goretex jacket will outlast and outperform anything military. MVP is just a cheap copy of goretex membrane in any case. Ridgeline I think are very nice but I think 6hours in rain and you’d also be wet.

I picked up an old goretex jacket off eBay, had it re seamed and just reconditioned the jacket at home and it’s the dryest jacket I’ve ever owned.

Have you reconditioned your Rab recently? I’d say unless the membrane has broken down it could be brought back to its former glory given the correct care.

 

[TLM]

With all so called breathing membranes if the outer fabric gets wet the membrane does not work, no matter what marketing says they don't win over physics.

This means that the fabrics so called DWR has to be in decent condition, it is a water repellant treatment.

Goretex is a fairly weak Teflon membrane that in perfect conditions works quite well but in less than perfect ones is no better and in some cases worse than others. One of the main problems with all these membranes is seams, the second one is just plain old mechanical strength.

Before some comes out with extremely good water repellants I think we are better off with well ventilated totally water proof garments.

 

[barrs]

My advice; stay away from all form of gore-tex and fancy schmancy brands and buy an old fashioned totally waterproof, cheap jacket.
Best rainjacket I have had is my current finnish army M13 rainjacket, totall rainproof with ventilation in armpits and on the back (covered with a flap).

Thanks for that, I checked out the M13 Jacket, and it does look ideal but hard to source now and no longer available on varusteleka. I could source something similar here in the UK though, the British issue rain-jacket which does have the flap but is MVP instead of the Finnish PU coated fabric.

I will continue to search for something similar, as I do like this option, thank you!

 

[BorderReiver]

Double Ventile is the best waterproof jacket material I've found, as long as you have somewhere to dry it overnight.

 

[barrs]

Goretex is absolutely the best thing you can use outdoors. But I would say the new stuff is not as hard wearing as the old. A decent tough goretex jacket will outlast and outperform anything military. MVP is just a cheap copy of goretex membrane in any case. Ridgeline I think are very nice but I think 6hours in rain and you’d also be wet.

I picked up an old goretex jacket off eBay, had it re seamed and just reconditioned the jacket at home and it’s the dryest jacket I’ve ever owned.

Have you reconditioned your Rab recently? I’d say unless the membrane has broken down it could be brought back to its former glory given the correct care.

Thank you,

Good to know about MVP, I have noticed a lot of the surplus jackets are made from this.

I had it reconditioned around 3-4 years back, as it was leaking at the shoulders. I was told at the time is can be quite common and a weak spot. Now, though, I was soaked right though to my mid-layer after 30 mins and the Velcro around the cuffs needs to be replaced too. I am happy to keep it around for the overcast days!

 

[JB101]

I have the following, mostly obtained via charity shops/army surplus & bootsales

US ECW jacket (2 / 3 layer & goretex with goretape seams -great jacket ,available in different sizes & lengths ,obviously cammo patterned ( woodland & 3 colour dessert) .Really good build quality (beware some 'imitation' ones that are arround) . I rate as 8/10

Ridgeline classic smock - Good build quality not worn in wet conditions yet, only in cold and windy where it worked well.Smocks you either get on with or not . I rate as 7/10 so far.

UK MTP issue waterproof - Few pockets ,used as a l/w shell , light as 'eqivalent to paclite goretex 7/10

Berghaus pac lite goretex -primarily used when cycling,few pockets, & light & stowable as is the UK MTP. 7/10

Barbour waxproof (trailmaster style jacket)- windproof, waterproof and re proofable & repairable ,good pockets (no hood) poor ventiation (for walking/exercise) used on Motorcycle kept me dry & whilst walking 8/10.

Also I have picked up other goretex jackets from charity shops (Berghaus/Mountain hardware/Phoenix /Mountain equipment etc .

Some of the jackets (goretex types) have had seams start to delaminate,material tear at strees points & zip areas & can be difficult to repair.

Currently I am interested in more traditional fabrics & have Pure Wool, Loden & Loden sympatex which I use as outer wear & will wear a simple goretex shell over them if wet weather is expected/encountered.

Some used to say that the best waterproofs were made for the sailing market such as Helly Hansen.They used to do very good quality sailing ,outdoor /climbing waterproofs but they went to the popular/fashion markets and are not the same as they used to be.

I don't think a perfect jacket exists unless you had one custom made.

 

[Toddy]

I bought Slioch for my husband nearly thirty years ago, and it's still sound, still the best waterproof jacket he has. But, it's heavy. It's made of goretex and the company made the jackets for the Mountain Rescue teams, and this was the weight of goretex they used. I ordered trousers for him too, but the lady who ran the company phoned me up and suggested that the fabric would be too heavy for overtrousers, and suggested a lighter weight....again, this is what the mountain rescue teams wore. The company was based in Poolewe.

Slioch Outdoor Jacket | Museum of the Highlands

museumofthehighlands.org

I think I paid £450 all those years ago, it was an expensive present, but honestly, it was worth every single penny.

I thought recently to buy another perhaps lighter weight set for him, Himself is getting older, and I'm trying to quietly lighten the load. He no longer goes off for three days in the hills, iimmc ? long walks are still a thing though.
Anyway, Slioch is no more, but there is a company in Skye that is a similar set up. Cioch.

Cioch Outdoor Clothing from the Isle of Skye

Again, really helpful people, and they will make you exactly what you want, in a guaranteed quality, and made to fit you.
Not cheap, but going by how well the Slioch stuff has been worn and has lasted. Well worth the money.

M

 

[Laurentius]

I like ventile, however it is a bit of a pain when it is wet through and has become stiff and heavy, that is when waxed cotton comes into it's own. It is also surprising how waterproof wool can be as well. If it is not raining too heavily there is no point in putting on a waterproof if you have a thick wool shirt, you will just sweat to death. Goretex has still not been around long enough to prove it's worth against wool.

 

[Herman30]

Thanks for that, I checked out the M13 Jacket

Sorry, was a bit unclear. Didn´t mean you would search for the M13 `cos it can´t be had. It was just an excample of a non-breathing rain jacket that can be somewhat breathing.

My point was to buy a non-breathing old fashion rubber or similar material jacket.

 

[Paul_B]

Not sure it's possible to stay dry in heavy rain when exercising. Whether it's rain getting in or sweat staying in the result is still going to be wet. I have a hierarchy, dry and warm, wet and warm and last wet and cold. The latter I avoid but the second I accept but always hope my next waterproof will enable the first. Never happened yet!

Best was original paramo but at almost a kilo in weight and too warm for over half the year it wasn't great. By original paramo I mean 1990s when it first came out. As soon as nikwax analogy became more accepted technology by hiking magazine gear editors and I started to see more of it out on the hills they changed and became less able to cope with proper rain. By proper rain I mean autumn or early spring in borrowdale area, wettest part of England! In fact anywhere in the lakes when it's all day rain.

 

[Toddy]

@Paul_B

I agree.
I worked in Matterdale, it was incredibly wet and cold. Totally defeated every breathable fabric. Like working in the clouds.
In the end I just wrapped up in a totally waterproof, and thus windproof, cagoule and over trousers, and just accepted that I had to keep moving. When the air dried a bit, I opened up the jacket to let the sweat evaporate somewhat.
Miserable conditions, but we survived, did not get hypothermia (windchill was down to -17˚C at times) but every stitch we wore was sodden wet.
Keep the wind off, keep moving, and strip off the wet stuff asap when you're somewhere safe.

The old farmers down there wore wool, and wax jackets....with decent pockets that didn't fill up with rainwater. Wool bunnets and muck boots.

It got so bad on that site that my husband drove down and brought me every single pair of dry hiking socks in the house, I even had the kids ones.
I came home with binbags full of wet muddy clothes. Nowhere to wash and dry stuff.

 

[Paul_B]

If less polluting outdoor clothing matters I think Finnistere do items of clothing with less environmental impact and I think a ventilation waterproof.

There's a Scottish outdoor clothing brand that also specialises in custom made. Like Cioch and the late Slioch. Under license they do nikwax analogy garments and a version with ventilation outer layer.

Keela is another brand claiming MRT use. Supposed to be good too.

There's been many brands claiming that over the years. Donate a few to an mrt, take some photos of them on a training exercise wearing them and you've got good marketing for years.

I have no idea how good the above are but have heard good things.

 

[Great egret]

Agree with Herman30.... i'd stay away from anything goretex membrame-like material. Buy a cheap bikejacket with zippers and a wool baselayer.

 

[Paul_B]

I have a history of whitewater kayaking so you accept getting wet as you get better at it. Then when experienced you end up pushing yourself and occasionally getting wet as well.

I just transferred that to my walking. In fact in my early paramo days I couldn't wear them in the summer rains. I wore a paramo, reversible Mountain shirt with a buffalo windshirt. It was good enough for hours of rain, indeed I'm often wore that when working as a conservation volunteer in all day rain on various jobs from chainlink fencing in open moorland in all day rain to chopping down 25 year old birch trees in a former quarry, gravel pit.

 

[Paul_B]

I grew up wearing cagoule of the rubbery, non-breathable variety. It put me off thing on family walks. Horrible things.

Much later on in the uni hiking society I only had my dad's old site work coat. Waterproof cyclone fabric. Not much better and not breathable despite the claim. I wore it as little as possible.

Imho no matter how bad modern membranes can be in heavy rain when wetted out they're in another league compared to the waterproofs that came before them without breathability.

One other point, first gen goretex was found to not be fully waterproof. Something about the membrane holes being top big I once heard from someone involved with outdoor brand. It was replaced with waterproof mark 2 goretex but the old one became their windproof membrane when added to fleece fabric.

What waterproof anyone chooses is just a personal choice or preference. If you've had a few different types of waterproofs you'll probably find your choice based on past experiences. I like membrane and paramo but also like non waterproof buffalo. I guess I'm not that bothered by being wet.

 

[Laurentius]

There's a Scottish outdoor clothing brand that also specialises in custom made. Like Cioch and the late Slioch. Under license they do nikwax analogy garments and a version with ventilation outer layer.

Keela is another brand claiming MRT use. Supposed to be good too.

There's been many brands claiming that over the years. Donate a few to an mrt, take some photos of them on a training exercise wearing them and you've got good marketing for years.

I have no idea how good the above are but have heard good things.

Would that be Weather Wise? I have a pair of trousers and a pair of shorts made to order from them.

 

[MikeLA]

Tried everything and the best thing is just to get on and find some form of shelter fast and stop and wait.
If you can’t just put up with it.
Don’t like goretex waste of money, ventile hard and heavy, ridgleine sweaty almost instantly. Best just buying a cheap rubberised coat and airing your sweat/body heat when you can. I usually wear a buffalo windcheater because I am still warm and I can vent it with the front zip.
Although doesn’t suit everyone.

In the army 1980s we used cheap waterproofs and managed fine.

 

[Paul_B]

Would that be Weather Wise? I have a pair of trousers and a pair of shorts made to order from them.

Hilltrek from Royal Deeside.

Hilltrek - cotton analogy