washing up
- Thread starter BILLy
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Agreed, although it seems to be the "fashion" now days to install wood burners again these days.
Had a "discussion" with a guy at work, since buying a Prius he seems to think he's gods gift to the environment, he came in boasting about having a wood burner and how much more "environmentally friendly" it was.
After some research and sums turns out, not so much.
I like over taking priuses, smug in the knowledge that I am getting a better fuel economy than them, and that I don't create any where near as much heavy metal waste at the end of life of the vehicle...
Sorry to digress from the soap debate.
Julia
Bluetrain, I don't want to seem like I'm lecturing, but the differences between soap and detergent are a bit more than which bits of your body you can use them on. Chemically they are very different.
One of the important differences to know (when camping) is that detergent can be very dangerous for aquatic life. Soap not so much, it breaks down very quickly. In the UK we certainly do get ground runoff after rain, particularly if there has been a very dry spell or a period of prolonged wet (leaving the ground saturated).
Absolutely agree with all the comments about hygiene. I was once on a nightmare trip with schoolchildren, most of which came down with a vomiting+diarrhoea bug. Almost none of the adults caught it, not even the ones cleaning up the kids. I believe the difference was down to hand washing.
One of the important differences to know (when camping) is that detergent can be very dangerous for aquatic life. Soap not so much, it breaks down very quickly. In the UK we certainly do get ground runoff after rain, particularly if there has been a very dry spell or a period of prolonged wet (leaving the ground saturated).
Absolutely agree with all the comments about hygiene. I was once on a nightmare trip with schoolchildren, most of which came down with a vomiting+diarrhoea bug. Almost none of the adults caught it, not even the ones cleaning up the kids. I believe the difference was down to hand washing.
For wild camping, a small amount of biodegradable washing up liquid. Combined with sand grit gravel n' moss makes for a good scouring/degreasing combination.
That said, the degreasing qualities of the biodegradable washing up liquids that I've used are greatly improved when using "hot" water, it's relatively inactive when cold and not as effective say, fairy liquid (not very environmentally friendly that "fairy liquid" but a very good detergent that is also effective as a degreaser in cold salt water if used in higher than normal concentrations).
A good way to degrease is to boil some water in the pan over the fire, while that's heating up prep some damp moss with biodegradable washing up liquid (if the pan/pot is heavily soiled use a moss and grit combo to get it clean of soiling by pre-scouring first, that'll help the liquid last that bit longer).
When the water starts to boil, lift off the pan and pour most of the water out (into another pan perhaps), quickly by holding the pan in a gloved hand emulsify the greasy pan with the soapy moss using the other, then rinse with fresh water until squeaky clean. Doing it that way I find the initial heat of the pan helps emulsify the grease to the point that it's water soluble in cold rinsing water. Thats the best way I've found that avoids getting scolded with hot water.
Another tip I picked up from a pal, is to rinse out soapy water onto the ground, biodegradable or not soap shouldn't be put directly into waterways. It'll find it's way into the waterway eventually but it'll be a very gradual process and the active ingredients should be harmless after filtering through the soil.
That said, the degreasing qualities of the biodegradable washing up liquids that I've used are greatly improved when using "hot" water, it's relatively inactive when cold and not as effective say, fairy liquid (not very environmentally friendly that "fairy liquid" but a very good detergent that is also effective as a degreaser in cold salt water if used in higher than normal concentrations).
A good way to degrease is to boil some water in the pan over the fire, while that's heating up prep some damp moss with biodegradable washing up liquid (if the pan/pot is heavily soiled use a moss and grit combo to get it clean of soiling by pre-scouring first, that'll help the liquid last that bit longer).
When the water starts to boil, lift off the pan and pour most of the water out (into another pan perhaps), quickly by holding the pan in a gloved hand emulsify the greasy pan with the soapy moss using the other, then rinse with fresh water until squeaky clean. Doing it that way I find the initial heat of the pan helps emulsify the grease to the point that it's water soluble in cold rinsing water. Thats the best way I've found that avoids getting scolded with hot water.
Another tip I picked up from a pal, is to rinse out soapy water onto the ground, biodegradable or not soap shouldn't be put directly into waterways. It'll find it's way into the waterway eventually but it'll be a very gradual process and the active ingredients should be harmless after filtering through the soil.
Dear Mr. mrcharley, you do in fact seem to be lecturing but I take no offence. I get this a lot. I do not take regular home washing up liquid (which we call dish washing detergent) to the woods. Outdoor stores carry all-purpose detergents or soaps, whatever they are, though as I mentioned before, my thoughts on them are like my thoughts about spray-on insect repellent. I'm not entirely convinced they're worth it. I never fix anything particularly greasy anyway, so that's half the problem solved right there and hot water followed by a wipe down with a paper towel seems to be sufficient. My wife gave me some cook-in-the-bag meals as a gift once and stuff like that, non-bushcrafty though it may be, eliminates everything else.
Soap used to be a home-made commodity but everything I ever heard about it when I was little suggests that it was stronger than any store-bought cleaner. If you read about what it's made from, you'd be forgiven for thinking it couldn't possibly work, at least as a cleaner, though it might make a good axle grease.
I can't imagine anything worse to pour into the ground than motor oil but ironically, that's where it comes from.
Soap used to be a home-made commodity but everything I ever heard about it when I was little suggests that it was stronger than any store-bought cleaner. If you read about what it's made from, you'd be forgiven for thinking it couldn't possibly work, at least as a cleaner, though it might make a good axle grease.
I can't imagine anything worse to pour into the ground than motor oil but ironically, that's where it comes from.
What do you brits call the kind of gel-like soap that's made from Pine oil or Linseed oil and potassium hydroxide? Is that just called soap? (In my mind there's soap as in "don't drop the soap", and then there's this kind which I don't have an English word for)
The gel-like soap should be as environmentally friendly as could be.
On earth bacteria: Over here it's not uncommon for summer homes to let the "grey water" (i.e. the water from your bath/shower/kitchen sink) into a ditch. This water is considered clean enough for this. The "black water" from the toilet isn't legal to treat this way, and is commonly infiltrated through a series of smallish pits filled with gravel where earth bacteria does its thing. This you can do with permanent residential buildings aswell. Perfectly legal way to dispose of all your household sewage in a modern country where ecological sanitation is fairly high on the agenda.
The gel-like soap should be as environmentally friendly as could be.
On earth bacteria: Over here it's not uncommon for summer homes to let the "grey water" (i.e. the water from your bath/shower/kitchen sink) into a ditch. This water is considered clean enough for this. The "black water" from the toilet isn't legal to treat this way, and is commonly infiltrated through a series of smallish pits filled with gravel where earth bacteria does its thing. This you can do with permanent residential buildings aswell. Perfectly legal way to dispose of all your household sewage in a modern country where ecological sanitation is fairly high on the agenda.
I honestly use a handful of dirt, with pine needles/forest duff, to scrub everything out. Then, rinse with water, and a little Dr Bonners that I keep in a tiny squeeze tube. I've never had an issue.
You've been misled.
Soap is produced by the action of an alkali with a fat. Ashes and animal fat will work.
I have friends who make soap using pure sodium hydroxide and vegetable oil (Olive oil is popular but makes for a hard soap).
soap is often an ingredient in motor oil and greases but I've never heard of domestic soap being made from them (although it would be possible, chemically)
In this country, even in the suburbs near large cities such as where I live, septic tanks, as they're called, are still used. That's where everything from the house drains into. The odd thing is, it is very much a "green" thing, because the sewage itself is decomposed with action from the bacteria. I presume there are things you aren't supposed to put down the drain but I don't know what they are. You still have to have it pumped out periodically. Most houses, though, have city/county sewage service for which there is a separate charge on the water bill.
In the Boy Scouts, they taught us to use dirt, sand and leaves to clean things but I never felt that was at all satisfactory. I even imagine that a wipe down with a paper towel would be more effective. But maybe you have cleaner dirt than I do.
There are all kinds of soap. These days you see "soft soap" all over the place. It comes in bottles with a little push-pump. Is that the gel you're referring to? There is also a variety of soap with a lot of grit in it, made for washing greasy hands after you worked on the car. It isn't common, though, but it sounds like it would work on utensils.
I have read that one shouldn't use your cooking utensils for washing your face or shaving. I can sort of understand it but it suggests that soap isn't good to have on your cookware. Maybe it's not kosher or something.
In the Boy Scouts, they taught us to use dirt, sand and leaves to clean things but I never felt that was at all satisfactory. I even imagine that a wipe down with a paper towel would be more effective. But maybe you have cleaner dirt than I do.
There are all kinds of soap. These days you see "soft soap" all over the place. It comes in bottles with a little push-pump. Is that the gel you're referring to? There is also a variety of soap with a lot of grit in it, made for washing greasy hands after you worked on the car. It isn't common, though, but it sounds like it would work on utensils.
I have read that one shouldn't use your cooking utensils for washing your face or shaving. I can sort of understand it but it suggests that soap isn't good to have on your cookware. Maybe it's not kosher or something.
I wonder about this fashion for woodburners. All those claims for being environmentally friendly....and I mind every house needing 'sticks' or kindling, and I mind woods near houses constantly cleared and trees taken down, year after year after year. I also mind dirty rain, and chimney fires, and soot, and white paint in houses that needed repainted year after year after year because the fumes don't all go up the chimney, do they. Every time you open the door to footer with the fire, if you can smell it, then it's out in your home.
Environmentally friendly....hmmm. I have my doubts.
Washing up when out. Plan your meals with care, and little is needed.
Bread to wipe out the pot, use the water you boil food in to make soup, or porridge for breakfast. If you leave a thin skin of porridge to dry on the pot it'll peel off cleanly, or just be hungry enough to clean the pot thoroughly. Greasy food ? use the ashes from the fire to boil up with a little water. Ashes are the original soda that mixed with fat makes soap. If you don't use much fat or oil to begin with though, it'll wipe out with the bread just fine.
Scouring, there's always something around, whether you want that in your dinner though ?
Chestnut leaves, birch leaves, soapwort, marestail, they all work, just how fussy do you want to be ?
Fairy liquid is as biodegradeable as any other washing up liquid, that's why they use it to clean oilslicked seabirds. It's more effective than many other brands though, so a little really does go a long way.
I don't take milk in my tea or coffee, so the mug just gets swirled with a little clean water and hung up to drain.
It's only me drinking from it, it'll keep until I get home to find a scourer, etc.,
Really burnt on food, soak the pot with water with ashes if you have them. If you have a fire then let it sit close but not on the fire. Water and the soda in the ashes, with a bit of heat will loosen most things.
Olive oil soap is Castille soap, and it's very good.
When I was little, older folks who didn't believe in the expense of the new fangled detergents, kept scraps of soap and put them into a little plastic gridded box and that was used to make soapy water for washing up. I mind swishing it about in the hot water in the sink as I stood on a chair in an elderly neighbour's house
If dishes were really greasy they used washing soda. That is truly excellent stuff, and I still use it today to clean pots, the cooker, and the cooker hood.
M
Environmentally friendly....hmmm. I have my doubts.
Washing up when out. Plan your meals with care, and little is needed.
Bread to wipe out the pot, use the water you boil food in to make soup, or porridge for breakfast. If you leave a thin skin of porridge to dry on the pot it'll peel off cleanly, or just be hungry enough to clean the pot thoroughly. Greasy food ? use the ashes from the fire to boil up with a little water. Ashes are the original soda that mixed with fat makes soap. If you don't use much fat or oil to begin with though, it'll wipe out with the bread just fine.
Scouring, there's always something around, whether you want that in your dinner though ?
Chestnut leaves, birch leaves, soapwort, marestail, they all work, just how fussy do you want to be ?
Fairy liquid is as biodegradeable as any other washing up liquid, that's why they use it to clean oilslicked seabirds. It's more effective than many other brands though, so a little really does go a long way.
I don't take milk in my tea or coffee, so the mug just gets swirled with a little clean water and hung up to drain.
It's only me drinking from it, it'll keep until I get home to find a scourer, etc.,
Really burnt on food, soak the pot with water with ashes if you have them. If you have a fire then let it sit close but not on the fire. Water and the soda in the ashes, with a bit of heat will loosen most things.
Olive oil soap is Castille soap, and it's very good.
When I was little, older folks who didn't believe in the expense of the new fangled detergents, kept scraps of soap and put them into a little plastic gridded box and that was used to make soapy water for washing up. I mind swishing it about in the hot water in the sink as I stood on a chair in an elderly neighbour's house
If dishes were really greasy they used washing soda. That is truly excellent stuff, and I still use it today to clean pots, the cooker, and the cooker hood.
M
I think the thinking behind woodburners being more "environmentally friendly" is that the wood is a renewable resource, whereas oil and coal aren't.
Besides after years of planting 1800 trees a day I think I'm OK in the carbon footprint department
Besides after years of planting 1800 trees a day I think I'm OK in the carbon footprint department
Nothing to do with washing up but where I'm from, most of the wood people use in their stoves is a byproduct of logging. It probably isn't available at just any sawmill, however, and for that matter, you have to have a handy sawmill somewhere not far away, plus a pickup truck to bring it home in. The sawmills cut up the slabs from the saw logs and sell them (it's not free). All you have to do once you get it home is to split it.
I'm sure some people have their own woodlot but no one that I ever knew did. It was easier to buy the wood. But it's certainly a renewable resource. But as far as using wood and coal and how it impacts the local neighborhood, it all depends on how many are using it. If you live in the country, everyone could use nothing but wood and coal and the impact wouldn't be noticeable, provided you don't burn down your house. But it would be a different story in town, it goes without saying.
In the woods, it's pretty much the same story, but there it's a question of available fuel more than anything. In parks where fires are permitted, you'll probably have to buy it on the spot because the woods will be picked clean of available woods if there's much traffic. Carrying wood in or out of the park is sometimes not permitted because of problems with insect infestation. But there are still places that not so many people visit (usually because access is difficult) and where an open fire is usually permitted. In such places locally available firewood is generally not a problem but a dry season will result in fire bans. Some of the places I go permit a fire, others do not. Even in the neighborhood where I live, a few people have outdoor fires, always in a regular fire pit or fireplace.
I'm sure some people have their own woodlot but no one that I ever knew did. It was easier to buy the wood. But it's certainly a renewable resource. But as far as using wood and coal and how it impacts the local neighborhood, it all depends on how many are using it. If you live in the country, everyone could use nothing but wood and coal and the impact wouldn't be noticeable, provided you don't burn down your house. But it would be a different story in town, it goes without saying.
In the woods, it's pretty much the same story, but there it's a question of available fuel more than anything. In parks where fires are permitted, you'll probably have to buy it on the spot because the woods will be picked clean of available woods if there's much traffic. Carrying wood in or out of the park is sometimes not permitted because of problems with insect infestation. But there are still places that not so many people visit (usually because access is difficult) and where an open fire is usually permitted. In such places locally available firewood is generally not a problem but a dry season will result in fire bans. Some of the places I go permit a fire, others do not. Even in the neighborhood where I live, a few people have outdoor fires, always in a regular fire pit or fireplace.
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