Can someone help me out with Viking Gods, in particular Odin's son Tiw/Tyr. What is the story with him, some say he was Odin's son others say he was the Father of all Gods. What was his role and which mortals seeked his help ?Why did he lose a hand ? Was it in battle or did he put it in a wolves mouth. Was he borrowed from the Romans God Mars and the Vikings renamed him ? How comes Tuesday is named after him. What is the correct prounounciation of his name is it Tue as in Tuesday. Why was an image in the form of a purse brooch found in a Anglo Saxon grave yard at Sutton Hoo. Thanks in advance for educating a confused numb skull, the Internet makes things complicated with this sort of thing.
Vikings!
- Thread starter Dave
- Start date
I have just watched the prog on iplayer and realy enjoyed it!
It has stopped me working for an hour though and now I have to catch up!
It has stopped me working for an hour though and now I have to catch up!
His mother was obviously a bit of a slapper.
He was a timelord
carelessness
No, they had him on sale or return.
Because the 'dayaftermondaybeforewednesday' is too much of a mouthful.
Same reason English bakers sell croissants.
As with all historical research, some of these answers may not be accurate.
Wow.. A lot of questions there, I'll see what I can do. (I hope this does not appear too religious because I will try to stick to the history.)
There is a great deal of confusion about the Norse gods because they evolved from earlier Germanic gods which in turn seemed to have evolved from the gods of Classical antiquity.
Most of the confusion stems from the writings of Snorri Sturluson who wrote a treatise about poetry and Norse Mythology in the thirteenth century. By that time Iceland was a Christian country and the book was intended to inform poets and readers about the old myths so that the old style of poetry, with their kennings and mythological references, would still make sense.
We are grateful to him for preserving much material about the Norse pantheon but he was not without his own influences.
The Sturleson family were wealthy and powerful and almost certainly followers of the Odinic cult before being Christian. In the latter years of pagan worship the Odinic cult had acquired considerable power making the rich richer while the poor got poorer. They were also behind a growing sexual inequality, moving from a roughly equal society to a largely patriarchal one. This is all clearly reflected in changes of burial practice and the increase of large rich estates and kingdoms.
Then something changed. Many large buildings and Odinic temples are destroyed and there is a sudden increase of symbols and pendants showing that Thor was becoming much more popular. It is not certain but there may well have been a popular uprising against the Odinists at the time.
Into this cauldron of unrest then steps Christianity. With it's Patriarchal tendencies and it's message of One God, One King with divine authority, was immediately interesting to the leaders of the time, who were mostly Odinists, as it offered pretty much the same methods of social control. Women subject to men's will and the poor should know their place as well.
Returning to Snorri then, we have a man who was steeped in the Odinic / Christian tradition and his writing reflect this with Odin being the chief god in his texts and all the other gods his offspring. This is not the evidence that can be seen in earlier writings.
The other major change is that the Germanic goddesses that were largely independent in earlier scripts are all suddenly just the wives of male gods in Snorri's texts.
Certainly Tyr or Tiw was considered one of the most powerful gods by the Saxons and earlier Germanic peoples. According to Snorri, Tyr lost his hand to the wolf Fenrir when the gods tricked him and bound him until Ragnarok. Apart from Snorri I do not know of any other clear reference to that event.
It would appear that Tiw derived from the Roman god or war, Mars, who's name is preserved in the French name for Tuesday which is Mardi. Not too surprising then that the Saxons venerated the same god on the same day and his name is similarly preserved. The same parallels can be seen for Wednesday, Thursday and Friday as well.
Redwald, the King we think is buried at Sutton Hoo was one of the last Pagan Saxon kings and one thought about why his burial was so rich is that his family, now Christian, wanted to respect his wishes but perhaps also rid them selves of all those embarrassing pagan symbols at the same time.
Didn't stop them from dropping a couple a Christian artifacts into his grave just in case though.
Gods and Myths of Northern Europe by H.R.Ellis Davidson is an excellent place to start and a good read too.
It's considered an old text now by some, but I have yet to see a better book giving the context to the mythology anywhere.
After that you will probably want to start reading translations of the original texts, which are not as scary as you might think, and they are largely available online these days.
A lot of the stuff rattling around in my noggin wont be found in books though I'm afraid. I've studied this stuff with some very interesting people but they are shy of publishing things these days because there are a lot of people out there with their own agendas who really don't want to look too closely at what they believe.
It's considered an old text now by some, but I have yet to see a better book giving the context to the mythology anywhere.
After that you will probably want to start reading translations of the original texts, which are not as scary as you might think, and they are largely available online these days.
A lot of the stuff rattling around in my noggin wont be found in books though I'm afraid. I've studied this stuff with some very interesting people but they are shy of publishing things these days because there are a lot of people out there with their own agendas who really don't want to look too closely at what they believe.
Carabao, a book you may find interesting is 'The Sagas of the Icelanders'. Translations into plain English by various scholars.. The advisory Editorial Board was largely comprised of Icelandic University scholastics plus a few other respected experts, so I think the book can be said to be a very acceptable translation of the original sagas. Penguin paperback ( 782 pages) ISBN 978-0-14-100003-9.
I have no connection other than as a customer, but a lot of my reading material comes from these people..http://www.asbooks.co.uk/..You may find other books of interest there.
I have no connection other than as a customer, but a lot of my reading material comes from these people..http://www.asbooks.co.uk/..You may find other books of interest there.
This is all fascinating stuff, class conflict in a pagan society. From your previous description, you seem to give the impression that the society of the vikings was previous to the rise of the Odinists a relatively egalitarian culture. How much of this egalitarian could potentially be explained by a fairly low population, which makes it easier to hold together a cohesive national/ethnic group without resorting to tyranny? Could the rise of the Odinists perhaps be a natural evolution on the path from tribalism to feudalism (and onwards eventually to social democracy).
I often wonder at how heavily dependent we humans are for our social forms and norms on the weather and the demands of the environment. Having witnessed (being involved in) civil disobedience and large-scale protesting in iceland a few years ago I was struck by how calm and organised the icelandic people are and their remarkable ability to come to a consensus and then act upon it without the usual bickering and inter-sect battling that tends to go on in european protest movements (really, you can't get anything done for all the posturing and point-scoring). I wonder how much of this can be ascribed to the size of the population (300,000 in an area about the size of england) and how much to the environment, which is extremely unforgiving of rash and hasty action. I swear, I was there for 2 months, I never knew how much I'd miss being able to pick up a decent length of sturdy wood whenever I wanted to, you take these things for granted.
I think you are right, population pressure was certainly a factor and it also added impetus to the expansion and settlement of the Vikings from Russia to America.
The Odinic cult was as you say a step towards feudalism and such systems tend to rely upon ideas such as "Divine Right" to explain why one guy gets to be in charge. It's part of the reason Christianity was so widely adopted in Europe and Scandinavia.
Not only did the One God, One King principle help to consolidate the many petty kingdoms into larger ones, the literacy of the monks and priests provided a foundation to more organised legal codes and structures too.
To maintain control of such a powerful tool as literacy it was almost exclusively taught to the ruling elite and the widespread use of Runic scripts was heavily discouraged and eventually associated with pagan practices and even witchcraft, which was a very tenuous link in reality.
The Odinic cult was as you say a step towards feudalism and such systems tend to rely upon ideas such as "Divine Right" to explain why one guy gets to be in charge. It's part of the reason Christianity was so widely adopted in Europe and Scandinavia.
Not only did the One God, One King principle help to consolidate the many petty kingdoms into larger ones, the literacy of the monks and priests provided a foundation to more organised legal codes and structures too.
To maintain control of such a powerful tool as literacy it was almost exclusively taught to the ruling elite and the widespread use of Runic scripts was heavily discouraged and eventually associated with pagan practices and even witchcraft, which was a very tenuous link in reality.
Can I ask mate as your possibly the most knowledgeable person on this subject I at hand, Do you think that if Scandinavia never accepted Christianity and carried on with the old ways they would have been the driving force in northern europe as to me they seem to have the upper hand when it came to exploration and literacy in the lower parts of society. It's came up recently in a discussion with a friend.
Not sure about that one, there is some thought that the Vikings paved the way for the Hanseatic League who were a major power in the Medieval period and they seemed to get on well enough with the new political structures.
I think religions tend to have their own life cycle and it was just ripe for change in Scandinavia at the time. History tells us that these things happen all the time and are continuing to do so now.
(I may be in danger of breaching site rules if I get too up to date on things like this.)
I think religions tend to have their own life cycle and it was just ripe for change in Scandinavia at the time. History tells us that these things happen all the time and are continuing to do so now.
(I may be in danger of breaching site rules if I get too up to date on things like this.)
Their belief in dragons and sea serpents is interesting. You have to assume they actually saw these creatures?
Nowadays we could speculate as to which ocean creatures they are describing, but Land Dragons? What could they have witnessed which could be mistaken for a dragon!?
In 1734 a missionary to Greenland wrote of a sea serpent he witnessed
"On the 6th of July, 1734, there appeared a very large and frightful sea monster, which raised itself so high out of the water that its head reached above our main-top. It had a long, sharp snout, and spouted water like a whale; and very broad flappers. The body seemed to be covered with scales, and the skin was uneven and wrinkled, and the lower part was formed like a snake. After some time the creature plunged backwards into the water, and then turned its tail up above the surface, a whole ship-length from the head."
His drawing of the serpent:
Nowadays we could speculate as to which ocean creatures they are describing, but Land Dragons? What could they have witnessed which could be mistaken for a dragon!?
In 1734 a missionary to Greenland wrote of a sea serpent he witnessed
"On the 6th of July, 1734, there appeared a very large and frightful sea monster, which raised itself so high out of the water that its head reached above our main-top. It had a long, sharp snout, and spouted water like a whale; and very broad flappers. The body seemed to be covered with scales, and the skin was uneven and wrinkled, and the lower part was formed like a snake. After some time the creature plunged backwards into the water, and then turned its tail up above the surface, a whole ship-length from the head."
His drawing of the serpent:
Next you'll be telling me the Hobbits are'nt real....
SeaSerpents unmasked: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/36677/36677-h/36677-h.htm
SeaSerpents unmasked: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/36677/36677-h/36677-h.htm
I, too, am enjoying the series, but really clicked on the link to see what Wayland had to say! I wasn't disappointed. I love his enthusiasm as much as his expertise.
Years ago, my father-in-law was making a documentary in Norway. He came round a corner on a mountain path and ran into a bunch of fully armed and very fierce looking vikings. He nearly had a heart attack on the spot, but luckily he noticed that some of them were smoking fags. It was then he remembered the Kirk Douglas film "The Vikings" was being made on the same location and realised they were extras relaxing in between takes.
Years ago, my father-in-law was making a documentary in Norway. He came round a corner on a mountain path and ran into a bunch of fully armed and very fierce looking vikings. He nearly had a heart attack on the spot, but luckily he noticed that some of them were smoking fags. It was then he remembered the Kirk Douglas film "The Vikings" was being made on the same location and realised they were extras relaxing in between takes.
