Oh so vegans aren't normal are we not? Of course! I've only been vegan for a few years and indoctrination is much easier at about 12 years old and below, so I think that explains a lot really. By the way I don't hold any ill feelings towards you no matter how you feel towards me. I completely understand your emotional frustration because I've been there too.
Veganism, Vegeterianism, Omnivorism
- Thread starter Janne
- Start date
No. Vegans can indeed be normal. However the belief that animals are either sentient or on equal footing with humans isn't even close. How is it normal for humans not to hunt or fish; not unless you consider such a small population as the 65.6 million in the UK + about half of the US population (1/2 x 380 million = 190 million) for a total of 255.6 million as the measure of normal out of 8 billion?
No. Normal morality dictates that neither my children nor my grandchildren leave home on their own until they learn to grow their own crops, hunt and fish their own meat, fight their own fights, handle defensive weapons, drive and fix their own car, ride their own horse, cook their own meals, tell the truth, and spot a liar.
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I wonder if most of us changed to a Vegan diet, how the agriculture would be restructured?
Most of pastures for cows are unsuitable as fields. Most areas where sheep and goats grow are not even fit for cows.
It maybe be overall a small % vise, but wild meats would also need to be replaced.
And fish and seafood.
Most Japanese Animalia protein comes from fish and seafood. How would they cope?
I wonder if anybody independent has done any research?
With independent I mean no person/organization with an agenda, be it vegan or meat industrial.
Most of pastures for cows are unsuitable as fields. Most areas where sheep and goats grow are not even fit for cows.
It maybe be overall a small % vise, but wild meats would also need to be replaced.
And fish and seafood.
Most Japanese Animalia protein comes from fish and seafood. How would they cope?
I wonder if anybody independent has done any research?
With independent I mean no person/organization with an agenda, be it vegan or meat industrial.
All that was missing was some dramatic music.
Yes, animals are sentient. You're almost alone in believing they aren't, due to an intentional lack of understanding on what the definition of the word is. You're not willing to believe that animals are sentient because you make money exploiting them, probably.
Veganism from compassion isn't everyone's cup of tea, I get it. Have a good day.
I posted a related study on this a few days ago, but I can't recall who it was carried out by.
You see, in the old days, before the possibility of w w transports, people ate a very frugal diet.
Grown and produced within a couple of hundred kilometers. In those days, meat, and even more, animal fat was hugely important. Still they ate Animalia much, much less than today.
Populations were smaller, but todays hugely more efficient plant agriculture should negate that.
I wonder if we in countries like UK and mainland Europe ( plus US and Canada) could go back to the frugal, (but meatless in addition) ways? I guess it would take a few years to get used to it, for is to forget the cornucopia of fruit and veg varieties we have today.
Grown and produced within a couple of hundred kilometers. In those days, meat, and even more, animal fat was hugely important. Still they ate Animalia much, much less than today.
Populations were smaller, but todays hugely more efficient plant agriculture should negate that.
I wonder if we in countries like UK and mainland Europe ( plus US and Canada) could go back to the frugal, (but meatless in addition) ways? I guess it would take a few years to get used to it, for is to forget the cornucopia of fruit and veg varieties we have today.
What you would see, if my grandparents' habits were any indication, were hundreds of quart jars
of preserves from the garden. Sure, it was peas and beans and carrots, big bags of potatoes.
Then the jars of cinnamon-spiced crab apples and the signature Saskatoon berries.
Oranges and apples from the grocery store, a lot of the apple to be dried.
Bartering meat was a carefully orchestrated event with several farms contributing.
As a little kid seeing all that go by, I thought that everybody lived like that.
Can't remember much else except the crudely faced stone of the farm house cellar walls and how awful dang cold it was down there!
Might have been less large scale production as more people were prepared to participate in the first place.
Get a bunch of farms all prepared to sell off some excess production and people in the village represent the consumption.
I buy eggs and meat and chickens like that. We made cheese. I could do that for myself. BIG FOOD has made the cheese sales
illegal, as far as they know with all their Listeria and E. coli.
of preserves from the garden. Sure, it was peas and beans and carrots, big bags of potatoes.
Then the jars of cinnamon-spiced crab apples and the signature Saskatoon berries.
Oranges and apples from the grocery store, a lot of the apple to be dried.
Bartering meat was a carefully orchestrated event with several farms contributing.
As a little kid seeing all that go by, I thought that everybody lived like that.
Can't remember much else except the crudely faced stone of the farm house cellar walls and how awful dang cold it was down there!
Might have been less large scale production as more people were prepared to participate in the first place.
Get a bunch of farms all prepared to sell off some excess production and people in the village represent the consumption.
I buy eggs and meat and chickens like that. We made cheese. I could do that for myself. BIG FOOD has made the cheese sales
illegal, as far as they know with all their Listeria and E. coli.
I am a few years younger than you, but having parents that were 'seasoned" by WW2 and Communism that followed, we still did the canning, preserving and drying bit.
We were lucky that we had access to the storage areas of the old family estate, as everything took up a lot of space, space we did not have in the 2 bedroomed apartement we were allocated.
Yes, the smell of a cool, damp cellar is engraved in my memory too!
My favourite preserved fruit were (and are) Cherries and Plums.
Go to a Polish supermarket in Canada, buy some and you will taste my childhood ( we are not Polish, but same taste of the preserved fruits)
People had to be more skilled in planning and cooking.
Vegans today live a luxury life today. All the varieties they can buy!
Of course Omnivores have it good too, but not as extreme difference as for Vegans.
We were lucky that we had access to the storage areas of the old family estate, as everything took up a lot of space, space we did not have in the 2 bedroomed apartement we were allocated.
Yes, the smell of a cool, damp cellar is engraved in my memory too!
My favourite preserved fruit were (and are) Cherries and Plums.
Go to a Polish supermarket in Canada, buy some and you will taste my childhood ( we are not Polish, but same taste of the preserved fruits)
People had to be more skilled in planning and cooking.
Vegans today live a luxury life today. All the varieties they can buy!
Of course Omnivores have it good too, but not as extreme difference as for Vegans.
I missed this comment somehow.
How is veganism impractical? It's really quite easy after the first month. Instead of reaching for the dairy milk you just go for a soy milk. Instead of reaching for beef sausages you just reach for some meat-free sausages.
How does veganism cause more damage than a meat-inclusive diet to the environment?
Yes, I mean your final sentence is true for all vegans who are vegan on the basis of animal cruelty.
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Exactly my point! We don't need to eat animal products. We can say bye bye to animal exploitation once and for all.
I assume the damage would be that we ould need to put more areas under cultivation, use more pesticides and fertilizer.
As I pointed out, a very large % of the animals we eat are brought up in areas not suitable for plant agriculture.
It is a fallacy to think that it is just to plant on the areas where the animals are, and to grow vegetable food meant for human consumption where animal feed is grown today.
Remember, a large % of animal food is derived from the parts of the plants we humans can not consume.
mashed up stalks and leaves from corn. Sunflower cake. Remains after OJ making, rapessed oil making, peanut oil making.
Remains after flour making. Fish meal ( masked up carcasses and heads, including skin and intestines.
Drink beer and wine? What is left is given to animals.
As I pointed out, a very large % of the animals we eat are brought up in areas not suitable for plant agriculture.
It is a fallacy to think that it is just to plant on the areas where the animals are, and to grow vegetable food meant for human consumption where animal feed is grown today.
Remember, a large % of animal food is derived from the parts of the plants we humans can not consume.
mashed up stalks and leaves from corn. Sunflower cake. Remains after OJ making, rapessed oil making, peanut oil making.
Remains after flour making. Fish meal ( masked up carcasses and heads, including skin and intestines.
Drink beer and wine? What is left is given to animals.
No, you live a luxurios life compared to the past, and compared to countries with a different governmental system than ours.
You can live it only because most of us are eating Animalia.
Similar to the people that refuse vaccinations. They are healthy because the rest of us are vaccinated.
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plus do not forget that fields are also fertilized by animal faeces and urine.
Remove the animals - you need artificial fertilizer.
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I do find it quite funny, that although most of your posts point to you being against animal cruelty, this is obviously not the case, if we all stopped eating meat, what do you think would happen to the animals who in reality don't serve a useful purpose, for example a pig, what use is a pig?, A goat, a cow, a deer, and the list goes on, earlier in one of your posts you said they should be set free and allowed to die out naturally, have you any idea how much disease this would cause with dead carcasses all over the place, I could well applaud your outlook if it was shouting for the end of Zoos, Circuses and the like, donkeys down mines, hauling bricks etc etc.
You talk a lot about the wrongs in following our ancestors, well in the beginning, I think you will find our ancestors were vegans, and vegetarians, only when they dicovered the means to arm themselves did they turn to meat, and they did this to survivr not for entertainment. You also dont seem to face the fact that in many areas of the world, especially the heavily populated areas, there isn't enough arable land to grow food suitable to vegan and vegetarian diets or to feed the population now, no matter what their dietry habits are.
I like most people on this planet as well as on this forum, ( I assume) don't agree with the animal killings that are going on in the likes of the Ivory trade, and Rhino horns for medicinal purposes etc, or other atrocities carried out by hunters so they can have a pair of horns put up over the mantlepiece, etc.etc. And I applaud the many charities who are helping to keep species alive by protecting them, feed ing them stopping their slaughter etc.
One other point is that you wish to stop animal exploitation, but you do agree that animals, will still be allowed to kill and eat meat, its just us humans that wont be allowed to eat meat?
Apart from the need to take extra vitamins some people may need, we all agree that a vegan diet is as healthy as a normal (sic) diet, so there is no need to go on and on about it, we see enough adverts from charities on TV showing underfed kids close to death to know, it doesnt matter what you eat as long as you eat something. So why can't you face the facts that vegans are vegans and non-vegans are non-vegans and they are because we have a choice,and your statement that it is unethical because we dont need to, is totally wrong, I dont need to smoke or drink alcohol, but i wouldn't say I was being unethical if I did.
You talk a lot about the wrongs in following our ancestors, well in the beginning, I think you will find our ancestors were vegans, and vegetarians, only when they dicovered the means to arm themselves did they turn to meat, and they did this to survivr not for entertainment. You also dont seem to face the fact that in many areas of the world, especially the heavily populated areas, there isn't enough arable land to grow food suitable to vegan and vegetarian diets or to feed the population now, no matter what their dietry habits are.
I like most people on this planet as well as on this forum, ( I assume) don't agree with the animal killings that are going on in the likes of the Ivory trade, and Rhino horns for medicinal purposes etc, or other atrocities carried out by hunters so they can have a pair of horns put up over the mantlepiece, etc.etc. And I applaud the many charities who are helping to keep species alive by protecting them, feed ing them stopping their slaughter etc.
One other point is that you wish to stop animal exploitation, but you do agree that animals, will still be allowed to kill and eat meat, its just us humans that wont be allowed to eat meat?
Apart from the need to take extra vitamins some people may need, we all agree that a vegan diet is as healthy as a normal (sic) diet, so there is no need to go on and on about it, we see enough adverts from charities on TV showing underfed kids close to death to know, it doesnt matter what you eat as long as you eat something. So why can't you face the facts that vegans are vegans and non-vegans are non-vegans and they are because we have a choice,and your statement that it is unethical because we dont need to, is totally wrong, I dont need to smoke or drink alcohol, but i wouldn't say I was being unethical if I did.
Yes, exactly. We live a luxurious life. Much different from the past. One where we no longer need to rely on the systematic slaughter of animals to survive.
Compost.
Half of your points are already covered and I've already repeated myself several times.
Regarding 'what would happen to all the animals if the planet went vegan at 3 o'clock on Friday', well humans breed the animals into existence. As the demand for them as food decreases, so too would the amount of animals. This would be a slow process and so eventually we would have no animals left.
Your next question will likely be, wouldn't it be better to live a life of suffering rather than no life at all to which I'd say no that makes no sense. I'd rather just not be born.
I think you are a city dweller. Compost? Are you joking?
I suggest you get a large pot, fill it with nice soil, and start growing potatoes. Establish a small compost and fertilize the potatoes. See how many years it works.
In a modern agrucultyre with high yeald plants you need large amounts of fertilizer, well balanced chemically to the state of the soil and what is expected to grow.
Most farmers fertilize before and during the growing season.
Drive through Holland in summer. Countryside smells of cows manure and pig manure.
As they have many high intensity animal ‘factories’ they have lots of manure.
Mix the solids with a certain % of urine, then water and make a slurry.
Spray it on.
That is how it is done.
My oldest friend in Sweden is an old hippie. Established one of the first Organic farms there, before the word Organic was invented.
Cows are a hugely important part in his oldfashioned organic agriculture.
Main crops - potatoes, peas and cauliflower.
Byproduct - the best beef I ever tasted, the best butter I ever had and the best kefir I ever drank.
Yes he does compost. All the vegetable remains are either ensilaged for the cows winter food, or composted for his family fruit and veg plot.
Have you ever visited an organic farm?
Veganism is practical for you, but it's impractical for society as a whole because most of society is incapable of obtaining enough vegetables without the environmental impacts of huge industrial monoculture farming. But you's already refused to believe that they are indeed environmentally worse than ranching (the damages I've already discussed)
I have another question for you Prophecy; if we don't eat meat, what are we supposed to do with the carcasses of all the deer, rabbits, wild hogs, and other assorted critters we have to slaughter every day to keep them out of your vegetables while we grow them?
