Unusual encounters in the wilderness

[louis_last]

probably straying into a topic that i do not want to see on this board, but here i go
The persons who believe that people who have had odd experiences are either makign it up or it can be explained by natural events, do you believe that their is a god / god's ?

I'm not a big god man BUT
A wise man once said,

' I feed the clouds, the rainbows, and the flowers
With their ethereal colours; the Moon's globe
And the pure stars in their eternal bowers
Are tinctured with my power as with a robe;
Whatever lamps on Earth or Heaven may shine
Are portions of one power, which is mine.
I am the eye with which the Universe beholds itself
And knows itself divine.'

The way I see it there isn't really an angle you can come at that from where its not the case, regardless of whether god is or isn't real. It's enough for me anyway.

 

[louis_last]

I've been thinking, with regards to proving things. Follow my reasoning for a minute.

If you were stood in a valley, with hills on all sides and your vision is restricted to just that valley and not beyond. Could you prove that anything exists at all outside of what YOU can pick up with your own senses at that time? Ok you may have walked into that valley so when you were on the route you could prove to yourself that the route exists but you cant see the valley so at that time you can't prove the valley exists. Follow me so far.

Perception of reality is what we percieve it to be, to us individually. Sure you could take a video of a certain place and that would prove that it exists, when you go home and watch it all you are doing is seeing something that was there when you were there, but can you prove it was still there while you were at home watching it?

You could have a friend stood in a certain place while you are elsewhere. You could be on the phone to him and he could tell you that where he is exists, TO HIM, but you can't see it so can you prove that where he is exists?

I'm not saying this is the case, i do not know, i can't prove anything exists out of my field of vision, even though i know it does. But that is just perception of reality.

If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it does it still make a sound?

This ties in to an extent with my point about the 'unexplainable experience' which is that it actually happened to me, I experienced it as vividly and lucidly as anything else that I see in life, however I am well aware of the fact that it is as likely to be a hallucination as anything else, my point is that it was as real as anything else in life is even if only to those who witnessed it and as such it doesn't matter that it may have been a purely subjective experience brought on by a group hallucination or not because it was still as real as anything possibly can be given that ultimately we are all 'trapped' inside our own minds. The individual worlds that we perceive are a only ever re-creation of the information that our senses provide us with, we can dissect this process as much as possible but ultimately I believe it will be impossible to fully understand or explain 'human experience' because at a certain point you have to accept the fact that anything you test or investigate is a product of the experience and not the reason or driving force behind it. The true mechanics of being will always remain beyond our frame of reference.

 

[swagman]

HillBill do you believe in Father Christmas and does he deliver presents to all the children on christmas eve?

There may have been a flood but if god is so powerfull why get Noah to build an ark
and not just stop it himself?

I do not believe in a God and there are over 100 contradictions in the bible.

 

[HillBill]

I do not believe in god either mate and nowhere did i say i did, at least not in the way you may percieve.The story relates to a past event. Stories get embelished, over the years different tellers add their own twist until the real story is lost within the embelishments. It is still there though in essence. I do not beleive the bible version of the flood. In my opinion there was no noah and no ark, people just survived whatever happened and recorded an account of the event I do believe there was a flood, cause unknown, that man attached more meaning to over the years as the story progressed through the evoloution of religon and the power the church held over its domain. It had to fit or didn't go in the bible. The story of the flood as well as much of the bible are taken from ancient Sumarian texts pre dating the bible by 4000 years.

http://www.bibleandscience.com/bible/sources/sumerian.htm

 

[h2o]

just about to type and the printers switching itself on and off,my house is strange every photo that is taken towards the front door ends up with funny spot things on

 

[h2o]

oh and one of the doors upstairs opens itself.

 

[h2o]

i could shut it now and it will be open by morning

 

[Zammo]

The stuff about eyes is somewhat true. I remember seeing something on TV about it a while ago, can’t remember what program. It was in Australia, someone did an experiment with a table covered with lodes of different objects, they got some school kids to look at the table for a few seconds and then covered it up and cleared the table. They then got the children to try and put all the objects back where they were. Most of the kids put the objects back starting at the top left and working down like a page and could only remember something like a third to a quarter of it accurately. The Aboriginal kids who had spent time in the bush put the objects back randomly all over the table, could do it much quicker and got most of them right.

The conclusion was that being tort to read and right from an early age means that we see things in a focused linear fashion. While being out in the bush early on in life allows you to see everything in your field of view at a glance.


I believe that many of these experiences may well have something to do with the real nature of time. Maybe sometimes we get a glimpse of something that happened far back in the past, or even the future? And maybe a slightly broader way of looking at the world may help you see them. But then I know nothing really and am just speculating wildly!

P.S. Hay dangerpie that was a very interesting result you got from your Schrödinger's cat experiment . Maybe you had found the worldsfirst quantum cat!

Just wanted to add something about eyes. I work as a transmission controller and means I look at many banks of monitors all the time. At first I wasn't very observant at all and nearly lost my job on one occasion as I hadn't noticed one of the tv channels I was working on was playing out black.

However over the years my eyesight has developed so much that I can literally pickup tiny outages or glitches that may only last a few frames or seconds. I did this by intially sitting watching the screens not actually focusing on any one point but just letting my eyes take in the whole scene. I now don't really have to sit and watch the monitors head on (doing so would have driven me insane as I work for a Japanese channel and can't understand any of what i'm broadcasting) I sit side ways on to them with my peripheral vision keeping and eye on them while I watch Sky on another tv or surf tinternet.

This is despite the fact I wear contact lenses and without them my eyesight is useless.

Also I have very developed hearing and can pickup very high frequencies (but I was born with this). The downside though is I seem to get loads of headaches.

 

[durulz]

Agree with you completely Hillbilly, I have been arguing with another fella about this lately, some people see things in black and white and cant grasp the possibility that unexplained things do happen. We do not need facts, we do not need proof, it is simply faith, faith that strange things can and do happen, things that have no explanation and seem beyond the realm of possibility.

Look at Noahs Ark, something that seems so inconceivable, something so far fatched that many people claim using 'common sense' tells you it didnt happen. Argue that with the million/billion people around the worl that believe and trust in their faith. Faith that something unimaginable could have indeed happened. Noone can prove that it did or didnt happen, who is right and who is wrong?

It all comes down to having an open mind to the possibilities that some things that happen just can not be explained, and probably never will be able to be explained.

Let's keep religious belief out of this.
I am an atheist and I find the supposition that 'faith' (in what? As an atheist I have faith as well - faith in human achievement, not some abstract divinity) or 'belief' can trump scrutiny and investigation deeply offensive.
Let's avoid this subject and get back on track.

 

[durulz]

I've been thinking, with regards to proving things. Follow my reasoning for a minute.

If you were stood in a valley, with hills on all sides and your vision is restricted to just that valley and not beyond. Could you prove that anything exists at all outside of what YOU can pick up with your own senses at that time? Ok you may have walked into that valley so when you were on the route you could prove to yourself that the route exists but you cant see the valley so at that time you can't prove the valley exists. Follow me so far.

Perception of reality is what we percieve it to be, to us individually. Sure you could take a video of a certain place and that would prove that it exists, when you go home and watch it all you are doing is seeing something that was there when you were there, but can you prove it was still there while you were at home watching it?

You could have a friend stood in a certain place while you are elsewhere. You could be on the phone to him and he could tell you that where he is exists, TO HIM, but you can't see it so can you prove that where he is exists?

I'm not saying this is the case, i do not know, i can't prove anything exists out of my field of vision, even though i know it does. But that is just perception of reality.

If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it does it still make a sound?

That's just solipsism and is not a credible philsophy because it does not bear up to experience.
Experience has shown that when I drive up the A249 to Sittingbourne, there is my friend. This has always happened. He has always been there. Based on that evidence I can safely assume that he is there - time and experience has proven it.
I can see what you are trying to do. But it is the sort of thought processes 15 year olds go through.

 

[durulz]

I'm not a big god man BUT
A wise man once said,

' I feed the clouds, the rainbows, and the flowers
With their ethereal colours; the Moon's globe
And the pure stars in their eternal bowers
Are tinctured with my power as with a robe;
Whatever lamps on Earth or Heaven may shine
Are portions of one power, which is mine.
I am the eye with which the Universe beholds itself
And knows itself divine.'

The way I see it there isn't really an angle you can come at that from where its not the case, regardless of whether god is or isn't real. It's enough for me anyway.

Nonsense.
To see 'God' (whatever you decide he is) in the natural world is short-changing it. People like to kid themselves that they are more 'spiritual', more 'sensitive', more 'in tune' with the mystery of the natural world if they see the divine in it.
That is intellectual infantilism.
If God (or Gods, or spirits, or whatever) created and imbued this world then it loses its mystery - after all, it's been created in a single act. End of story.
Science and investigation puts the mystery back into the world. How do these things grow? How do the evolve in the environment? Where do they come from? What causes these colours? ad infinitum. There is the wonder and mystery!
Just saying 'God did it', or 'the spirits look after the trees', robs the world of its wonder.

 

[John Fenna]

Some folks have a different understanding of the Universe etc than others.
There is no right or wrong - just different understanding.
Some have narrow understandings (I cannot understand quadratic equasions) some have wide understandings.
Do not mock those whos understandings differ from yours, most likely they could well do the same to you....
Be nice to everyone you can be nice to - it makes things nicer all round.
I understand some things that I cannot explain, some understand things they cannot explain to me in a way I can understand (like how the internet works!)
It does not mean that their explainations are rubbish - it means that I cannot understand.

We are all different - that is the wonder of life - lets keep being pleasant, even to those who cannot understand what we do

Or just shut the up!

 

[durulz]

Some folks have a different understanding of the Universe etc than others.
There is no right or wrong - just different understanding.
Some have narrow understandings (I cannot understand quadratic equasions) some have wide understandings.
Do not mock those whos understandings differ from yours, most likely they could well do the same to you....
Be nice to everyone you can be nice to - it makes things nicer all round.
I understand some things that I cannot explain, some understand things they cannot explain to me in a way I can understand (like how the internet works!)
It does not mean that their explainations are rubbish - it means that I cannot understand.

We are all different - that is the wonder of life - lets keep being pleasant, even to those who cannot understand what we do

Or just shut the up!

Erm, yes and no.
At some point you have to have an opinion and make a stand.
I feel offended by the suggestion that God and religion can take care of the world. So why should I not reply to those suggestions? Why is it OK for people to bring God into it, but not OK for others to take God out of it?
Just becaus one cannot 'explain' the world, why do they have to see the divine in it? You say yourself that you do not understand the internet, but I bet you don't think little spirits carry all that information to another computer!? And if someone expressed the opinion that they did, would you really think, 'fair enough - if that's what you want to believe' (well, you may say that to their face, but I expect you'd be thinking something else)? Of course not.
So why should I 'shut the up!' for fear of offending their 'beliefs', when they don't care about offending mine?
Ho hum. When will we learn? What a terribly scary world it can be.

 

[John Fenna]

Erm, yes and no.
At some point you have to have an opinion and make a stand.
I feel offended by the suggestion that God and religion can take care of the world. So why should I not reply to those suggestions? Why is it OK for people to bring God into it, but not OK for others to take God out of it?
Just becaus one cannot 'explain' the world, why do they have to see the divine in it? You say yourself that you do not understand the internet, but I bet you don't think little spirits carry all that information to another computer!? And if someone expressed the opinion that they did, would you really think, 'fair enough - if that's what you want to believe' (well, you may say that to their face, but I expect you'd be thinking something else)? Of course not.
So why should I 'shut the up!' for fear of offending their 'beliefs', when they don't care about offending mine?
Ho hum. When will we learn? What a terribly scary world it can be.

My post was not directly in reply to yours

PS the word "you" is not aimed at any individual...

I never mentioned God - whom I do not understand in the way some do - and was I saying anything about shutting up and stopping offending the folk who have religious beliefs?
Or was I telling the relious types to lay off knocking those who can only see the "physical realities".
All I was asking for was tollerance of peoples understanding of THEIR world.

I am happy to not understand some peoples beliefs - how can I all understand things - science is baffling enough and now even some scientists are saying "God might exist" (but is it the one god that all the worlds religions would recognise?) - Too much for me to understand and anyone who has all the answers probably misunderstood the question!
Sure - everyone has the right to their own opinion (I would defend anyones right to state their personal beliefs) but I would also say that there is no right (god given or otherwise) to slag people off for having an understanding that clashes with your own.

Science has been proven wrong too many times (normally by scientists...) to be the only right answer: theologians will it seems never stop arguing and inciting wars.

If we could just sit back and say - I have a point of view/understanding/explaination that I currently hold to be true, let me hear yours. It may help me develop my understanding or I may find it too radical for me to accept.

There is no need to abuse people for their adherance to one belief/understanding/point of view or another that is different to yours. If you cannot accept it, wish the holder the best of luck, self censor and rude response (which is what I meant by the remark at the end of my last post) and move on.

Lets be nice folk huh?

 

[durulz]

Righty-O.
Point taken, John. My apologies.

Just one quickie though:

Science has been proven wrong too many times (normally by scientists...) to be the only right answer: theologians will it seems never stop arguing and inciting wars.

Well, that's my point. Science changes it's views and ideas in response to data, research and new insights rather than stick doggedly (pun intended) to dogma. That's the beauty of science - it has the strength to admit it can be wrong.

Anyway. Enough.
I REALLY don't want to see this turning into a religious debate (despite evidence!).
This is a Bushcraft forum, NOT a religious forum.
So can we can back to the original nature of the thread and stop bringing religion into it. I've loved reading these stories so far.

 

[John Fenna]

No need to apologise - it was just a misunderstanding, probably caused by my not beening clear...
Yeah - I am not a religious person and find dogmatic rows boring
But - although individual religions are seen to be unable to develop you only have to look at the ordination of Women into the Anglican Priesthood to see that religions too can be big enough to admit they are wrong on the small points - just as science does
And new branches of religions are constantly forming to correct the mistakes of the past....

But yes - lets hear some more "wierd" happenings.....much more interesting than starting a religious debate which no-one can win....

 

[Allie]

HillBill do you believe in Father Christmas and does he deliver presents to all the children on christmas eve?

There may have been a flood but if god is so powerfull why get Noah to build an ark
and not just stop it himself?

I do not believe in a God and there are over 100 contradictions in the bible.

Just one last religion related thing
I'm not religious but this really bugs me - in the story the reason God didn't 'just stop it himself' was because it was he who created it...! Sorry - just had to clear that up and get it out of my system!!
Although saying that I would like to believe - no more fear of death
I've never had any weird experiences - what I'm always afraid of though is like, random murderers out to get me, I'm like the most paranoid person in the world!!

 

[HillBill]

That's just solipsism and is not a credible philsophy because it does not bear up to experience.
Experience has shown that when I drive up the A249 to Sittingbourne, there is my friend. This has always happened. He has always been there. Based on that evidence I can safely assume that he is there - time and experience has proven it.
I can see what you are trying to do. But it is the sort of thought processes 15 year olds go through.

I'm not suggesting that what i posted is correct. Only as reasoning to the argument of proof. You can assume anything you like mate, thats your priviledge. I'm not religous so i don't preach the bible. But then again i don't hold science as an absoloute either. I make my own mind up on subjects after lots of research.

I am neither left or right brain dominant, i consider myself to be lucky in this, the left is for logical thought process, it is structured and conditioned by school and the way we are taught to do things. The right brain is the side that gives us intuition,instinct and sensitivity to things around us. and is the weaker side to the majority. Yet it is the right side that opens us up to the possibility that we don't know everything and not everything can be explained.

 

[saddle_tramp]

is there such a term as being 'non-theist'. in that although i dont follow a set religion, im open-minded to experience and my own understanding.

 

[John Fenna]

Pan- theist means all (as in Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster) gods - so why not non-theist...or "Dog- manual" instead of "Dog - matic?"
"Dogmatic" always makes me think of an ugly American car for some reason - now that is Spooky!