Tree Felling (Ray Mears again!)

[Cliff Osenton]

Yes there are alot of mistakes in Rays books, I believe this is not his fault but the lack of people now trained in axe work, the last axeman retired 30 years ago. I picked up many techniques from the last of them years ago. I tried to contact Ray a few years ago but had no reply, the offer is still open to pass on safe techniques.

Safety with axes is often underrated, I have used both chainsaws and axes for many years, axes are by far the most dangerous. Think of a 3.5 kg block of razor sharp steel coming at your foot at 100mph.

I often think of axe work as a competition where the last one to hit his foot wins!! its that bad, few can use an axe safely, a good axe can cut through 3 inchs - 75mm in one cut. Its a good idea when working in woods with an axe, to carry a good knife so when you chop your foot off you can make a crutch to walk home (sick but true)

Axe technique differs from chain saw technique by setting the hinge further back, then putting the back-cut in with a left-handed cut (never cross hands), change hands = change feet position. I'm not going into detail but I have put in an article to Tony on axe/knife safety, if OK I may do one on axe technique.

 

[Stuart]

I look forward to reading that, thanks Cliff

 

[swamp donkey]

Now is this undercut in propotion or will another inch do? Mind you I might have to move my feet and I'm not sure I can do all the back cut left handed!
licence? There cant be more than 5 metres cubed in this one can there ?
Lets just go down the pub and leave it til tommorrow!

 

[Cliff Osenton]

Great picture, shows it all. Note the man on the left is working left handed, this normally earned extra pay. Also how the are both small men with small double bit axes say 3.5 lb. Note the felling knotch (call it what you like) is set half way back not 25% max in as with chainsaws. Also the cross cut is a bit small, I have felled 18inch dia oaks this way a few years ago, hard work. You joke about the felling knotch should be another inch in, one of the problems with axe felling large trees is its easy to under cut with a few swings cutting the hinge in half, your safety is the skill in setting the hinge. Also the hardest part if setting big knotches by axe is the last part in the centre to get a straight line across the hinge, known as the 'tree within the tree', when using 7lb axes horizontally its very tiring especially left handed working on one knee to get a low cut. Its very rewarding when the tree goes the right way.

Best tree felling quote ever, Q - which way will this tree go? A - I don't know, Q - surely with your experience you do?. A - no because I haven't chopped 'this' tree down before.

 

[bambodoggy]

I have now updated all of my posts on this thread to how they clearly should read.

I'm sorry if people lost the infomation I posted but I was quite clearly in the wrong to have tried to help with answering questions for people.

In future please direct all forestry questions to "Fallow Way", as he's been a forestry instructor for over 15 years!

All the best,

Bam.

 

[Abbe Osram]

Yes there are alot of mistakes in Rays books, I believe this is not his fault but the lack of people now trained in axe work, the last axeman retired 30 years ago. I picked up many techniques from the last of them years ago. I tried to contact Ray a few years ago but had no reply, the offer is still open to pass on safe techniques.

Safety with axes is often underrated, I have used both chainsaws and axes for many years, axes are by far the most dangerous. Think of a 3.5 kg block of razor sharp steel coming at your foot at 100mph.

I often think of axe work as a competition where the last one to hit his foot wins!! its that bad, few can use an axe safely, a good axe can cut through 3 inchs - 75mm in one cut. Its a good idea when working in woods with an axe, to carry a good knife so when you chop your foot off you can make a crutch to walk home (sick but true)

Axe technique differs from chain saw technique by setting the hinge further back, then putting the back-cut in with a left-handed cut (never cross hands), change hands = change feet position. I'm not going into detail but I have put in an article to Tony on axe/knife safety, if OK I may do one on axe technique.

Yes please mate, it would be great to learn from you.

I would like to share with you guys something new I heard a week ago.

Which I didn't know as dangerous but the guy I was talking too has over 20 years forest experience. He went to the woods to help two young guys cleaning up an area of trees which had been turned over from strong winds.

He found the guys sitting behind the roots of a tree lying on the ground.
They cut of the roots end to work later on the rest, sitting there behind the roots having a fire for a coffee. The old men told me that he was shocked to see the kids sitting in the shelter of the roots having a fire.

I said way? Using the roots end with all the earth hanging down as a windbreak having a fire behind. And then he told me what was new to me:

A tree being bend down by the wind has parts of the roots still intact in the ground they are bend like the string on a bow. When we cut of the tree leaving the root stump there and having a fire behind it, the warmth makes the ground soft and the whole stump can flip back on the guys sitting behind. He told me that again and again people are getting hurt if they do it. I first thought he was pulling my leg but my wife who is from Finnish Lapland knew about this too and told me that she heard of people getting killed or hurt that way.

For me it was news, I am sure it will help some of you.

yours
Abbe

 

[Phil562]

Bam, I know which tree surgeon I would hire

 

[Fallow Way]

Why is there is this closing of ranks and attitude when all i have done is given information which is well known and shared by countless upon countless of other foresters.

I am always well prepared to take on new information and try desperatly hard to be good at my job. Ask Cliff if i havent already been in contact to learn what I can from him.

If you dont agree with what I say then fine, stick by your guns but dont be childish please. You didnt seem to mind my view some time ago when you were specifically asking my advice.

 

[tomtom]

Cliff i would also be really interested to read the article you are proposing!

also, this thread is getting silly!
anthonyyy asked a serious quesion let not drag it off topic!

 

[Martyn]

I have now updated all of my posts on this thread to how they clearly should read.

I'm sorry if people lost the infomation I posted but I was quite clearly in the wrong to have tried to help with answering questions for people.

In future please direct all forestry questions to "Fallow Way", as he's been a forestry instructor for over 15 years!

All the best,

Bam.

That's a little petulant Bam, dont you think?

Retro-editing your posts in such a way, completely changes the context of the conversation and is an abuse of your post editing priveliges.

I know absolutely nothing about tree felling, but it strikes me that this conversation could have been handled with a little more maturity from a couple of people, regardless of who is right and who is wrong.

 

[bambodoggy]

Yep, maybe you're right Martyn. Still, it's done now and I'm happy to let things lay as they are.

No hard feelings from me

Bam.

 

[Martyn]

Yep, maybe you're right Martyn. Still, it's done now and I'm happy to let things lay as they are.

No hard feelings from me

Bam.

Fair enough Bam.

 

[Martyn]

Though I have taken the liberty of editing your edited posts to be a little more neutral.

 

[bambodoggy]

Though I have taken the liberty of editing your edited posts to be a little more neutral.

No problem at all Martyn, please do whatever you think best for the good of the site.

Thanks,

Bam.

 

[Martyn]

I do me best mate.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

 

[swamp donkey]

Well Chaps!

I find it interesting the directions that we go in when we try to put practical tasks onto paper either by writing or drawing. The fact is,Is that whats in a book is only guidance at best , I have a large collection of books stretching back to the 1840's . If we take the front cut for example, the depth required is given as 25%, 30% or a bit out of the front with no dutchman . (with no real difference between axe, saw or chain saw).
So there is no real need to change what one says. In different parts of the world things are done differently , I have been told that if you have to kneel your are doing it wrong , that back hand cutting is dangerous and walking around the other side and carrying on normal hand is safer etc .All from very expericenced tree fellers. I can find with ease, pictures of the back cut being directly in line with the bottom of the front cut etc.
If you take the picture I posted. In fact it does not tell us much at all, only that the two chaps were happy to stand in front of it to have their pictures taken with the tools they were using(if in fact it was them in the first place). You could surmise that they are tall by reading that the tree was 13 foot in diameter and guessing at their axe handle lengths or short as has been mentioned . I once had the privalaged to meet a Norwegian Tree Feller who had only felled Pine trees and was not prepared to fell an oak with out guidance because he knew nothing about them, As he had never felled one and was happy to admit it.
The key is that they all learnt on the job and got the feel, used the safe system of work that was past down and only got hurt if they ignored their training because of a lost of concentration/ distraction caused by greed, tiredness , drink etc etc etc.
Me I got lucky a few weeks ago and was able to cut a 21" spruce, completly by axe as part of a demonstration. I used a 4lb axe because I dont like 7lbs ones.
Monday we will be cutting it up on a woodmizer.

 

[BorderReiver]

Here's a good page describing a Dutchman.

Interesting link Led,thankyou.

 

[Roving Rich]

Well my Dads tree surgeon friend was Killed last weekend. He had over 40 years experience of working with trees and still made a fatal mistake.
I am not sure of the details, suffice to say that a branch landed on him, either from the tree he was felling or one of its neighbors.
He suffered a serious cut to the head and a broken neck, he never regained consciousness but died 48 hours later in hospital.
He was a kind and generous man who insisted on kitting me out with all the appropriate safety gear when i started my very brief carer in forestry. May he rest in peace.

It seems to me no one will ever know everything about tree felling, there are lots of people with lots of experience and the wisest are cautious and humble.
All advice here is given freely. You may disagree but you only pay if you do not heed it.

Regards
Rich

 

[Wayland]

Sorry to hear of your loss, I lost a friend too recently in a hunting accident.

It's worth remembering that however prepared we may be, nature is an unforgiving force at times.

 

[Tony]

A sober reminder.