Tom Brown's instructor/student ratio...

[Bhold]

How about this crowd?

http://www.alberrios.com/albums/073006/index.html

And it seems to be high bucks, too... Just multiplicate.
This guy has a following in the US and even some fans here. Wonder if it is possible to learn well in this kind of format.

 

[torjusg]

From what I have heard, his teachings are quite insane. Based on some quasi-native american religion.

Only know him from reputation though.

 

[gregorach]

My favourite:

By 9 or 10am, Eddie taught us how to "flintknap" or make sharp edges out of rocks.

And the picture to accompany that astounding statement shows a whole lot of people listening to a lecture from some dude (presumably Eddie) up at a whiteboard...

 

[torjusg]

After having a closer look on that page: It looks like the classes are s***!

As you said: Too many students.
They are clearly in a fixed camp and hardly seem to be moving about in the terrain.
There seems to be very little participation.

There is no end to what you can get away with by being famous.

 

[leon-1]

People must learn something.

If you think about it you may be able to think of people that speak very highly of Tom Brown jr and it is not just down to reputation.

Geoff and Hannah from Natural Pathways have both done courses by Tom Brown as have Antonio Akkermans and Thomas Schorkon. IIRC Borneo Wildman from this forum has done courses with Tom and having done a little tracking with him I can say that he is no slouch.

Generally courses in the UK have limited numbers because they are easier to handle for the instructors which then also means that they are safer.

 

[Bhold]

People must learn something.

If you think about it you may be able to think of people that speak very highly of Tom Brown jr and it is not just down to reputation.

Geoff and Hannah from Natural Pathways have both done courses by Tom Brown as have Antonio Akkermans and Thomas Schorkon. IIRC Borneo Wildman from this forum has done courses with Tom and having done a little tracking with him I can say that he is no slouch.

Generally courses in the UK have limited numbers because they are easier to handle for the instructors which then also means that they are safer.

Yes Leon, I figure people must learn from him.
But I am sure that one-to-one is better, if you have a good instructor.

And lectures are quite different from hands-on experience.

The lad can be good at what he does, but certainly he has choosen this format for courses because they are more profitable, NOT because you learn more in the middle of a crowd, being shown more than doing.

If someone gave me one of his courses as a gift, I would go for it, though.

 

[dommyracer]

I have been lucky enough to learn some of Tom Brown's ideas and techniques on a third hand basis via Thomas Schorkon.

It was in a far far smaller group than those pictured and included lots of practical doing.

From those pics of Tom's school there seems to be a lot of sitting and listening and not much in the way of doing

I think his ideas and techniques have a lot of validity - there can be no doubt that the man has a serious amount of dirt time under his belt, I'm not sure about the quasi-native American stuff, seems that this may have been created to lend some sort of authenticity to his teaching.

 

[leon-1]

Yes Leon, I figure people must learn from him.
But I am sure that one-to-one is better, if you have a good instructor.

And lectures are quite different from hands-on experience.

The lad can be good at what he does, but certainly he has choosen this format for courses because they are more profitable, NOT because you learn more in the middle of a crowd, being shown more than doing.

If someone gave me one of his courses as a gift, I would go for it, though.

Yes you are right that he has chosen this way of teaching because they are more profitable.

To be honest many would probably do the same, but they have more integrity. The main point is that if you want to learn it does not matter what the learning enviroment is, you will learn anyway.

One to one is good, but sometimes it's better to work things out for yourself, it's also good to make the mistakes as that is all part of the learning curve and you will learn more from it. You will find that it is unlikely that you will have one to one tutition all the time from any of the schools that teach tracking in the UK.

The other thing that you find on most courses is that you will spend a lot of time sitting watching instructors doing things whilst you make notes, they are showing you the techniques so that you can practice in your own time.

In the review he mentioned "dirt time", well it takes a lot of dirt time to get good at tracking and you would never have enough time on a course. I can say from experience that both Woody and Max, Bushcraft Expeditions and Shadowhawk respectively, try to maximise the amount of dirt time you get when you are on courses, but there are still a massive amount of skills that you learn first in the classroom.

The point being is that you see the skill first and then practice it after and continue practiceing it after the course has finished and that holds for any course or skill be it with Ray Mears, Roger Harrington, Mors Kochanski, Lars Fält or any of the other names in Bushcraft.

Yes a smaller group is a more comfortable learning enviroment and yes it is nice to have one to one's with the tutor, but they are not always as common as you think. You would probably find that on Tom's courses he will have a number of his "disciples" wandering around as assistant instructors helping with the one to one advice in any case.

 

[Bhold]

You are right in many senses, Leon.
And it is not hard to see that there are lots of good info in his writings.

Take a look for instance on the articles writen by him (links at the end of the page):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brown_(naturalist)

I just don't fancy all that marketing, the claimed native american part (I am an anthropologist, maybe that explains my lack of good will on taking him seriously) and the way the show is done (from what we can see).
I personaly prefer a down-to-earth approach. Maybe it is just my way of seeing and doing things.
But it is nice chatting here. By no means this would be the end of our conversation. I realy enjoy talking to people who does not agree with me. It makes me evolve my thinking.
Cheers

 

[PJMCBear]

Did anyone note what they drive? Typical! Teaches others to respect our world, then contributes to it's ecological downfall. An enviromentalist in an SUV.

 

[Buckshot]

I think those could be the students cars couldn't they?

 

[Goose]

Maybe the photos may show a lot of sitting around the whiteboard because while you are doing stuff you don't get a chance to get your camera out. Some of the best things I have done I have no photos of because I was too busy to take any!
But it does seem an awfully high student/teacher ratio, unless the practical stuff has different ratios to the theory?

 

[hammock monkey]

the thing that put me off the Tom Brown course (having looked at Al's adventure) is the statement / quote that Tom could see everything that had happened in the past 24hrs on the patch of ground.
seriously...no chance.

 

[torjusg]

Doesn't everyone in America have SUV's?

 

[dommyracer]

Haha spot on Goose, I hadn't thought of that. Still looks like a huge amount of people though - more like a Moot with lectures rather than a course per se.

Buckshot - apparently Tom Brown is known to wear a Rolex and drive a Hummer.

 

[torjusg]

Buckshot - apparently Tom Brown is known to wear a Rolex and drive a Hummer.

But he doesn't own a shirt or shoes!

Very consistent...

 

[bent-stick]

Just had a look at his bow making article

f you're careful, you can split two usable bow staves from a single sapling of about 1" diameter.

2 staves from 1" sapling? that would make a high crowned back with a maimum thickness of 1/2". Should pull like a bit of cooked spaghetti...

 

[Tony]

Guys, you’re attacking him and I’m not comfortable with that, please stop. There’s no issue with talking about the skills etc but lay off him as a person, it’s not acceptable.

 

[torjusg]

Sorry, went a little far there Tony.

 

[dommyracer]

But he doesn't own a shirt or shoes!

Must've spent all his money on petrol !!

With respect Tony, I think questioning what someone is teaching / preaching when they're clearly not living by their own standards doesn't constitute a personal attack.