The ones that fall apart like confetti are the biodegradable ones made from polymers like PLA and probably newer ones. Old plastic bags will last for thousands of years in the ground which could be viewed as an ideal form of carbon storage.
The Rise and Fall of the Plastic Bag
- Thread starter Joonsy
- Start date
2012 ©. Content compiled by the Canadian Plastics Industry Association
No Dave, that's just a site that held the relevant text for quoting. The original report was commissioned by the UK Government
Here is the same information from the BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17027990
If you prefer to read the report yourself in detail (all 120 pages of it)
http://a0768b4a8a31e106d8b0-50dc802...550b.r19.cf3.rackcdn.com/scho0711buan-e-e.pdf
https://publications.environment-agency.gov.uk/skeleton/publications/SearchResults.aspx
Those numbers are based on scientific research by the Evidence department of the Environment Agency - not knee jerk pseudo environmental misunderstandings.
I've got a neighbour who's very good at being 'green'. We were talking about the bag 'tax' and she showed me her shopping bags which are all natural material bags and all over 10 years old. I use my cotton shopping bags daily to carry my lunch to work and for shopping (these were free bags btw) They've been washed and one has had a minor repair but they're showing no signs of needing to be thrown away. I don't think I've ever seen a cotton bag that's been knackered beyond use so I'd really question that 51 times stat.
No, that was never the case. Maybe something that this supermarket dit? Usually you go into the supermarket, put the empty cans and bottles in a machine and the machine prints out a receipt which you bring to the cashpoint. There you get your money or you can use it like money. Maybe they were giving the tramps those receipts because they didn't want to buy something and didn't bother to stand in line to get their money? Or it must have been something special to that supermarket...
Its not about what you or like minded people do its all about what average joe blogs does.
Well if you question it, that must trump proper scientific research then
Possibly...
Environment Agency Lifecycle assessment of supermarket carrier bags available in 2006
Lots of data compiled from over 10 years ago in that report too. Nothing to say that's wrong but it's a fact that a lot of supermarkets have responded quickly to reports like that. The bag I've got here has a label that suggests it is made in "a fairtrade accredited, ethically audited, carbon neutral factory". Lots of green wash rubbish but you can't argue with the fact that businesses are being forced to act more green now. and think about how much recycling and refuse collection has changed in that time. The data is out of date now.
and the Joe Bloggs point is exactly the reason why this law is being brought in. Joe Bloggs will keep on using tons of plastic bags because it's easy and free unless he's forced to change his ways.
So its better that he uses a cotton bag and throws it away after 51 uses? Effectively increasing environmental damage by 150% overnight? Genius that. You shouldn't simply dismiss the most up to fate, independent research because it doesn't suit your entrenched position.
A logical next step would be to put a tax on cotton bags - £6.55 per bag would be proportional.
A logical next step would be to put a tax on cotton bags - £6.55 per bag would be proportional.
Cotton bags? All the reusable ones I've seen (for use at grocery stores) are a poly/cotton blend. And don't forget the insulation sewn into the cold bags. The only cotton ones I've seen are the big ones for use at dry goods stores.
And none of them have ever lasted more than about 18 months (more or less 36 shopping trips)
And none of them have ever lasted more than about 18 months (more or less 36 shopping trips)
when I worked in retail in Ireland shopping bag charges where in place, lots of companies started to switch to using paper bags so they would not have to deal with (plastic) bag charge. I saw this as a positive change in behaviour from the actual companies that was a direct result from the charge, As paper bags are biodegradable
I now live in the south of Germany where there is also a plastic bag charge in place, pretty much every one here uses re-usable bags( this is cotton/hemp bags sold buy supermarkets or more often your own small backpack/daypack) or they bring the food straight to the car in the trolly and transfer it into collapsable boxes which again everyone seems to keep permanently in the boot of the car .
It is now at the point here where the plastic bags in some supermarkets are actually kept hidden away where the cashier sits as there is so little demand for them , you really have to go out your way and ask to have one as you cant just pick one up your self
I see this as a positive direct result of the plastic bag charge as well .
I understand what is being said here about the view that this charge is punishing everyone and not just the ones that litter but at the end of the day I think its not that hard to make a choice not to buy one and find an alternative way to transport your goodies in.
The results I have seen in both Ireland and Germany suggest to me that the bag charge is an effective way of reducing down the amount of disposable plastic bags being used and thrown away in our society and I am all for that
I now live in the south of Germany where there is also a plastic bag charge in place, pretty much every one here uses re-usable bags( this is cotton/hemp bags sold buy supermarkets or more often your own small backpack/daypack) or they bring the food straight to the car in the trolly and transfer it into collapsable boxes which again everyone seems to keep permanently in the boot of the car .
It is now at the point here where the plastic bags in some supermarkets are actually kept hidden away where the cashier sits as there is so little demand for them , you really have to go out your way and ask to have one as you cant just pick one up your self
I see this as a positive direct result of the plastic bag charge as well .
I understand what is being said here about the view that this charge is punishing everyone and not just the ones that litter but at the end of the day I think its not that hard to make a choice not to buy one and find an alternative way to transport your goodies in.
The results I have seen in both Ireland and Germany suggest to me that the bag charge is an effective way of reducing down the amount of disposable plastic bags being used and thrown away in our society and I am all for that
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Find me the facts behind that 51 use figure. As far as I can see that was a number plucked out of the air. Find me one person on the street who can say without doubt the number of times they've used the bag they're holding.
That's a really odd set of extremes there. All the things you mention in the list have as much impact, or more, than litter on other people.
If they didn't then no-one would be asking for controls on them.
One thing they have in common is a lack of self-reliance. The ability to take responsibility for your stuff from end to end as opposed to expecting someone else to pick it up.
Life Cycle Assessment of Supermarket Carrier Bags, by Dr Chris Edwards and Jonna Meyhoff Fry
http://www.biodeg.org/files/uploaded/Carrier_Bags_Report_EA.pdf
That strikes me as fairly definitive - it is a peer reviewed scientific paper commissioned by a disinterested body.
If you still wish to dispute it perhaps you would care to link to similar peer reviewed, scientific papers that support your position?
Yeah I read the report and I'm not disputing the figures based on their analysis. I'm disputing the assumption that all cotton bags self-destruct after 51 uses. I'm quite happy that a cotton bag needs to be used a lot to justify the carbon, it's why it's called a bag for life not a bag for 51 uses.
and it's not a definitive report by any means. It's very helpful in some repects but I think it's pretty sad that people immediately look at it and think that it means reusable bags are pointless. It's a report about the commonly available bags in supermarkets alomst 10 years ago and even then...
but screw it. Plastic bags are a tiny spec in the amount of waste we produce. If people take this attitude over something this small we have no chance. If the result of that report is that we go back to plowing billions of plastic bags into landfill do you think that's a win for anyone? If it was that bad do you think the government would ignore it and bring in this new 'bag tax' in England? No. I can guarantee you that the choice of material that make up the bags that you will be offered in England when this comes into force will reflect this report and invalidate (or validate its result depends how you look at it). and no I can't back that up with evidence No doubt there will still be plenty of magical self-destructing chinese cottons bags available too though but buying cheap disposable rubbish from China is what got us into this mess in the first place isn't it?...
and it's not a definitive report by any means. It's very helpful in some repects but I think it's pretty sad that people immediately look at it and think that it means reusable bags are pointless. It's a report about the commonly available bags in supermarkets alomst 10 years ago and even then...
but screw it. Plastic bags are a tiny spec in the amount of waste we produce. If people take this attitude over something this small we have no chance. If the result of that report is that we go back to plowing billions of plastic bags into landfill do you think that's a win for anyone? If it was that bad do you think the government would ignore it and bring in this new 'bag tax' in England? No. I can guarantee you that the choice of material that make up the bags that you will be offered in England when this comes into force will reflect this report and invalidate (or validate its result depends how you look at it). and no I can't back that up with evidence
No doubt there will still be plenty of magical self-destructing chinese cottons bags available too though but buying cheap disposable rubbish from China is what got us into this mess in the first place isn't it?...
The 51 re-uses is also mentioned in the Independent Dave
http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...r-bags-not-ecovillains-after-all-2220129.html
Can you provide any reports, or evidence on total mean re-use?
Its not about "do nothing"
Its about not being a "holier than thou", not ignoring all the scientific evidence, not providing valid alternatives, and generally being utterly repelled by those who choose to interfere in a commercial transaction without compelling evidence.
There are far worse litter items.
If we actually wanted to reduce litter, the contents of those bags would be a better place to start than the bags themselves. Why does meat have to be wrapped three times? Why do we need tin cans, with paper labels, in cardboard sleeves?
Its a silly, feel good, badly thought through bit of legislation supported by misguided people who like to pretend they are ecologically minded whilst living on many, many multiples of the global average wage, burning ten times their fair share of fossil fuels and carrying a bag that is probably made in a sweat shop.
http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...r-bags-not-ecovillains-after-all-2220129.html
Can you provide any reports, or evidence on total mean re-use?
Its not about "do nothing"
Its about not being a "holier than thou", not ignoring all the scientific evidence, not providing valid alternatives, and generally being utterly repelled by those who choose to interfere in a commercial transaction without compelling evidence.
There are far worse litter items.
If we actually wanted to reduce litter, the contents of those bags would be a better place to start than the bags themselves. Why does meat have to be wrapped three times? Why do we need tin cans, with paper labels, in cardboard sleeves?
Its a silly, feel good, badly thought through bit of legislation supported by misguided people who like to pretend they are ecologically minded whilst living on many, many multiples of the global average wage, burning ten times their fair share of fossil fuels and carrying a bag that is probably made in a sweat shop.
I'd think it reasonable to assume that the hippy dippy cotton bags do fall apart quickly. I was in Tesco today, took my plastic 'bags for life' and shopped but the blooming packaging on some foods is way over the top and this is what needs addressing. Some of you lot in England will start to think about taking bags for your shopping, perhaps as (depending upon your age) your mom and dad did. Today I looked either side of me at other tills and both shoppers had their own bags.
I think I'll date my 10p 'bags for life' and see how long they last.
I think I'll date my 10p 'bags for life' and see how long they last.
But it works...... Not as a 'tax bags to stop litter' or 'using other bags is more green' but as a changer of attitudes. You say without 'compelling evidence', but we've had reports on here from Wales, Ireland and Germany that it worked, and that the litter levels were reduced, with a general change of attitude.
So we have something that has and does work elsewhere & you don't want it - so place your alternative please, with compelling evidence of course.
The fact that "it works" is in dispute. It may remove disposable carrier bags - whilst increasing the far more environmentally destructive alternatives. Why is that good?
My point is this. When we accept that misguided meddlers get to impose their views on society, in the face of individual choice, scientific research and logic, our society is already diminished. We need less laws - not more.
My point is this. When we accept that misguided meddlers get to impose their views on society, in the face of individual choice, scientific research and logic, our society is already diminished. We need less laws - not more.
xylaria
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
The fact is most supermarkets in wales simply dont stock the thin bags that are free in england. The same thin bags that break easyly and form wind blown detris. I mostly shop in aldi, I reuse the empty boxes from the store to carry my shopping to my bike paneirs. 24 years ago it was common to for costomers to pack shopping into boxes, there was shelfs past the checkouts and a pile of boxes provided to do just this. Then they disappeared with s****y refits. Disposable bags came in.
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