The Rise and Fall of the Plastic Bag

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rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
24
69
south wales
The evidence based success of the 5p levy is shown by sales of bags in shops. Less bags sold = less bags sent to landfill or littered. Liek you said though that is pretty scanty evidence at best.

What I don't like is that the law was brought in for Ireland and Wales and has been hailed as a success based purely on the amount of plastic bags bought at supermarkets. While that makes great headline figures I haven't seen any figures on comparitive sales for other products like bin liners and pet waste bags to see if those have risen sharply which you would think would be crucial to the experiment. Whilst I'm all for reusable bags I think this should have been dealt with in a more thorough manner.

You live in South Wales, have you not noticed less bags in the the countryside/streams/rivers? I certainly have. What more 'thorough manner' would you suggest?
 

mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,257
44
North Yorkshire, UK
Oh, you've not been following the Thunderbolts Project on Youtube have you?

Copernicus and Galileo eat your heart out, Ptolemy is dead! Everything is about to change, the Earth is no longer the centre of the Universe. Everything we thought we knew, we didn't.

You are right - I haven't been following some psuedo-science idiocy.
 

daveO

Native
Jun 22, 2009
1,456
519
South Wales
You live in South Wales, have you not noticed less bags in the the countryside/streams/rivers? I certainly have. What more 'thorough manner' would you suggest?

Where I work in Monmouthshire no but it was pretty clean to start with and where I live in Blaenau Gwent no as well but the type of bag used to litter has varied if nothing else. I don't think litter is a big part of the problem though if I'm honest.

By thorough I mean the analysis of the effect of the new law in Wales could be have been measured not just as a number based on disposable bags that were not bought compared to the number bought before the law was introduced but should have taken into account other factors such as increased sales in bags of other types (ie bin bags etc). Why introduce it in Wales as an experiment if they're not going to properly examine the results?
 

Midnitehound

Silver Trader
Jun 8, 2011
2,117
27
AREA 51
You are right - I haven't been following some psuedo-science idiocy.

That is funny, the opponents of Copernicus and Galileo said the same!!! Start shopping for an egg removal flannel, you are going to get fried on this one! ;) Just out of interest, what degree in Science do you hold?

Cosmology is in crisis mate and the EUM is the answer. The Sun is electric and Einstein was wrong.
 
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mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,257
44
North Yorkshire, UK
That is funny, the opponents of Copernicus and Galileo said the same!!! Start shopping for an egg removal flannel, you are going to get fried on this one! ;) Just out of interest, what degree in Science do you hold?

Cosmology is in crisis mate and the EUM is the answer. The Sun is electric and Einstein was wrong.

I actually believe in using common sense and scientific method. As for degrees . . . I studied physics and computing.

As one of my lecturer's said "How do we know these theories are correct? We don't, but we can use them to help use design stuff that works, which suggests they are a pretty good model of how the universe functions."

Since things like GPS rely on Einstein's theories, current-day computing relies on fairly advanced physics; I think the conventional theories are a pretty good model of how things function.
 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
24
69
south wales
If you can repeat an experiment time after time and get the same results the theory/rationale is proven I thought?

As Rene Descartes said "cogito ergo sum" or in modern slang "I'm pink therefore I'm spam"
 

mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,257
44
North Yorkshire, UK
If you can repeat an experiment time after time and get the same results the theory/rationale is proven I thought?

As Rene Descartes said "cogito ergo sum" or in modern slang "I'm pink therefore I'm spam"


not exactly

You observe - then theorize based on observations. Then you use your theory to predict something and devise and experiment to test your prediction. You carry out the experiment and publish the results. Other people then try the experiment to see if they can reproduce your results. If everyone gets similar results then you decide your theory might be a good one.
 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
24
69
south wales
Pretty much what I said, but then I'm not in full blown pedant mode LOL... you really do need to chill out chap (or chapess?).

not exactly

You observe - then theorize based on observations. Then you use your theory to predict something and devise and experiment to test your prediction. You carry out the experiment and publish the results. Other people then try the experiment to see if they can reproduce your results. If everyone gets similar results then you decide your theory might be a good one.
 

Midnitehound

Silver Trader
Jun 8, 2011
2,117
27
AREA 51
Yeah, I do.

Stress at work and midnitehound caused sense of humour failure.

No need to have a sense of humour failure on my account and it is not settled Science that GPS proves Einstein's theories as demonstrated by Ron Hatch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGZ1GU_HDwY&list=PL66vQZe6SoChhM2F20xKXzEpzIk5pDylB

I'm baffled by the idea that it is Hoax Science, I have been involved with the EUM for years and the idea that it is a hoax is completely and utterly laughable. As for Pseudo-Science, well I think Steve Crowthers has shown that Black Hole Theory falls into this category, it is just that nobody wants to see that the Emperor has no clothes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRsGPq77X0Q

We shall have to wait and see, flannels at the ready! :D

Truth passes through three phases:
First it is ridiculed.
Second it is fiercely and violently opposed.
Third, it becomes self-evident.
— Arthur Schopenhauer
 
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mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,257
44
North Yorkshire, UK

Swallow

Native
May 27, 2011
1,545
4
London
As one of my lecturer's said "How do we know these theories are correct? We don't, but we can use them to help use design stuff that works, which suggests they are a pretty good model of how the universe functions."

Since things like GPS rely on Einstein's theories, current-day computing relies on fairly advanced physics; I think the conventional theories are a pretty good model of how things function.

Saying something is a good model of how things function because you can build something that works is really quite tentative.

A more accurate way of saying it might be that because you can build stuff with it, the model interacts with reality well enough not to be utter nonsense.
 

Midnitehound

Silver Trader
Jun 8, 2011
2,117
27
AREA 51
Saying something is a good model of how things function because you can build something that works is really quite tentative.

A more accurate way of saying it might be that because you can build stuff with it, the model interacts with reality well enough not to be utter nonsense.

LOL, yep, just because it works doesn't mean it works the way you think it works. Ptolemaic Epicycles worked for hundreds of years even though the theory was incorrect. The Gravity driven theory of mainstream Science relies on fantasy Dark Energy, Dark Matter and Black Holes, but we can't see them! Now that truly sounds like pseudoscience. The EUM keeps predicting correctly and explaining observations logically without resorting to improbable explanations and saying "well we weren't expecting that"!
 

Jared

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Sep 8, 2005
3,411
653
51
Wales
Anyone using biblical quotes whilst trying to explain something scientific gets scepticism from me.

He seems to believe in invisible friends and the supernatural, at which point science goes out the window.
 
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Midnitehound

Silver Trader
Jun 8, 2011
2,117
27
AREA 51
Anyone using biblical quotes whilst trying to explain something scientific gets scepticism from me.

He seems to believe in invisible friends and the supernatural, at which point science goes out the window.

Seriously? You do realize that many of the most famous and revolutionary Scientists ever had a belief in the supernatural and unseen.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941
 

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