The Rise and Fall of the Plastic Bag

[Swallow]

Scientists hypothesize in our day that the Sun is powered by thermonuclear fusion whereas all the evidence and observation now shows that it is blatantly electrical in nature and that it is powered from without not from within. Now when that rattles the cage of the the 'hundredth monkey' nobody is going to be spending time discussing plastic bags or carbon pinkieprints.

I don't think the nature of what the Sun does, will change significantly just because we change our understanding of what it does.

So the impact of having a different understanding of the Sun is not likely to change anyones behaviour or change their worry priorities unless they work in that field.

 

[santaman2000]

...Find me one person on the street who can say without doubt the number of times they've used the bag they're holding.

I can. And it's less than 51 times before they wear out or get lost.

 

[santaman2000]

There is no denying that Wales has cleaner looking hedgerows than a lot of England that I have seen....
Over here (West Wales - where old hippies go to die) many folk do not use the "more destructive" alternatives but use rucksacks and other bags that literally last for decades - and if you want a polybag is a small donation to charity such a hardship?
The main plastic polluter around here is silage wrap....

But how many rucksacks does it take to hold 2 weeks' (or a month's worth) of groceries for a family of four plus pet food? I nearly fill the back seat of a full size pickup with just one week's groceries for just me and the dog. It takes about 10 plastic bags or 7 paper ones to keep it contained.

That said, I do like the rucksack idea in theory.

 

[santaman2000]

......Corporations are arguably culpable in what happens to their packaging as they are choosing to use it. They are causing 'harm, loss and damage'. Hit them in the pocket and they will soon change their ways.....

Except that in many cases said packaging is mandated by law for health reasons: Example being that cello wrap around meat in the supermarkets.

I know some of you are going to argue that it isn't mandated there and that you don't believe it affects health. I'd tend to agree with you on both points; for now. But reality is irrelevant while public perception is everything. And while public perception there hasn't gone as insane as it has here---yet; It likely will at some point..

 

[santaman2000]

Don't give a rats bottom so long as my town and countryside is tidy to be honest.

So in reality it not only hasn't reduced total pollution (waste in a landfill isn't litter but it's still pollution) It just takes said pollution out of sight and out of mind. Would somebody explain to me just how that's actually a "change of attitude" that helps the environment?

 

[xylaria]

Except that in many cases said packaging is mandated by law for health reasons: Example being that cello wrap around meat in the supermarkets.

I know some of you are going to argue that it isn't mandated there and that you don't believe it affects health. I'd tend to agree with you on both points; for now. But reality is irrelevant while public perception is everything. And while public perception there hasn't gone as insane as it has here---yet; It likely will at some point..

As a hippy that has come to west wales to die, the standard bit of kit for shopping on monthly basis is a mitsubishi fourtrac with bread crates. For true hippies we have company called suma that delivers to local cooperatives pulses and various types of flour in bulk quantites. You can buy a whole years worth of lentils and soya beans in one go.

 

[santaman2000]

As a hippy that has come to west wales to die, the standard bit of kit for shopping on monthly basis is a mitsubishi fourtrac with bread crates. For true hippies we have company called suma that delivers to local cooperatives pulses and various types of flour in bulk quantites.

Had to look up that Mitsubishi. It might hold a few days groceries for me (me alone) or one meal for a family of four plus pets. As for deliveries, the only delivery food here is for frozen beef steaks or some gourmet foods. Neither is in bulk and both are expensive.

 

[John Fenna]

As a hippy that has come to west wales to die, the standard bit of kit for shopping on monthly basis is a mitsubishi fourtrac with bread crates. For true hippies we have company called suma that delivers to local cooperatives pulses and various types of flour in bulk quantites. You can buy a whole years worth of lentils and soya beans in one go.

You ain't far enough West to be close to the grave yet - you are safe to get your produce in yearly batches!

Much of the "Health Food Shop" packaging is real cellophane bags - the stuff made from cellulose not plastic - and is therefor 100% biodegradable. Those who shop in health food shops seem to be on board with the "reduce, reuse, recycle" ethos and hopefully this kind of packaging will have a resurgence as plastic packaging becomes seen in a darker light thanks to polybag bans.
Interestingly good quality cigars come in cellophane not plastic wrappers so as not to degrade the pleasurable smoke!

 

[xylaria]

Had to look up that Mitsubishi. It might hold a few days groceries for me (me alone) or one meal for a family of four plus pets. As for deliveries, the only delivery food here is for frozen beef steaks or some gourmet foods. Neither is in bulk and both are expensive.

It is quite normal for rural roads to be less than 8 feet across. Most supermarkets will deliver even to remote farms, so you order your food off the internet, howevertthe service does cost extra.

 

[xylaria]

You ain't far enough West to be close to the grave yet - you are safe to get your produce in yearly batches!

Much of the "Health Food Shop" packaging is real cellophane bags - the stuff made from cellulose not plastic - and is therefor 100% biodegradable. Those who shop in health food shops seem to be on board with the "reduce, reuse, recycle" ethos and hopefully this kind of packaging will have a resurgence as plastic packaging becomes seen in a darker light thanks to polybag bans.
Interestingly good quality cigars come in cellophane not plastic wrappers so as not to degrade the pleasurable smoke!

One pours ones delivery of organic lentils into a box hand carved by a welsh speaking patagonian goat herder. The budget coffee refil from the tescos delivery gets poured into the jar labelled fair trade.

 

[daveO]

The 51 re-uses is also mentioned in the Independent Dave

http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...r-bags-not-ecovillains-after-all-2220129.html

Can you provide any reports, or evidence on total mean re-use?.

The Independant is quoting the same report as you, the report that assumed an average of 51 uses. The key word there is "assumed". You won't find a report that gives you an accurate mean re-use unless someone is willing to give out thousands of bags and have people tally the numbers of times they use them. Otherwise you'd be basing your results on surveys outside supermarkets where people have to estimate the amount of times they've used their bags. If this was feasible then the I like to think the Environment Agency would have conducted such research instead of relying on assumed results.

I can work out a couple of mine actually. One was a freebee cotton goodie bag from a local authority when I did a charity walk in May. I've used it daily since for work and bringing home stuff from the garden here and shopping. Approximately 80 full working days worth of use (lets say that's worth 2 shopping trips a day) and no sign of wear and its a pretty poor quality bag. The other is the one I keep in the car and was from when I went on holiday abroad 18 months ago and had to buy a shopping bag. It gets used at least once a week for shopping so at least 80 uses again although it could be 100 could be 120 I couldn't honestly tell you. Given my scientific research there someone must be wrecking the same bags in half the time to average that out to 51. They're either incredibly clumsy or you've hit on part of the problem which is that stronger bags are capable of being used for more tasks than plastic so get used and abused.

 

[presterjohn]

I have what at least I think is a sensible approach to the stuff I consume and use. On a bushcraft hobby level I like to when possible buy second hand or ex army type stuff as that fits into my ethos slightly better than buying gadgety kit and clothes shipped in from China. having said that it does not mean I have blanket bans on that kind of purchase it is more a general direction I stear into.

To a certain extent that applies to the rest of how I live my life. I am not militant about reusing and recycling it is more a general approach. I can be a bit tight fisted too so that makes an impact in how much of the worlds resources I drain too. 90% of the time we use hessian bags for shopping for instance but on occasion I do forget to put them back in the car so I will use plastic bags. These never go into the bin though without being used again at least once or twice usually as small bin liners or boot bags and such like.

Incidentally all the cotton bags we first got for free then 50p failed within a year or so. The big hessian bags however have not degraded at all and look like they will last for years. We must have about 8 of those now and in the bottom of each of those are a couple of the better quality Lidl bags which we use as back up bags.

Everything we do in life has a cause and effect. Being aware of that is half the battle.

 

[mrcharly]

Scientists hypothesize in our day that the Sun is powered by thermonuclear fusion whereas all the evidence and observation now shows that it is blatantly electrical in nature and that it is powered from without not from within. .

Where do you get that one from?

 

[santaman2000]

It is quite normal for rural roads to be less than 8 feet across. Most supermarkets will deliver even to remote farms, so you order your food off the internet, howevertthe service does cost extra.

I wish it existed here but unfortunately I've only even heard of it in very large cities.

On second thought, I really can't imagine ordering fresh fruit or fresh meat without the chance to hand choose it in person.

 

[santaman2000]

You ain't far enough West to be close to the grave yet - you are safe to get your produce in yearly batches!

Much of the "Health Food Shop" packaging is real cellophane bags - the stuff made from cellulose not plastic - and is therefor 100% biodegradable....

John when I mentioned "health" I wasn't referring to health food stores, I was referring to the meat counter at ordinary supermarkets and grocery stores. They package fresh meat by placing it on a polystyrene tray and wrapping in cello-wrap (Cling wrap) Are we referring to the same material? The Cling wrap well be biodegradable, I really don't know. But the polystyrene tray isn't.

 

[John Fenna]

Cling wrap is nasty stuff that contains estrogen mimicking elements that get into your food and is altering our hormonal balance.
Cellophane is a natural based cellulose product that (as far as I know) is neutral

 

[daveO]

Cling wrap is nasty stuff that contains estrogen mimicking elements that get into your food and is altering our hormonal balance.

On the plus side I have developed a tidy rack though

 

[rik_uk3]

John when I mentioned "health" I wasn't referring to health food stores, I was referring to the meat counter at ordinary supermarkets and grocery stores. They package fresh meat by placing it on a polystyrene tray and wrapping in cello-wrap (Cling wrap) Are we referring to the same material? The Cling wrap well be biodegradable, I really don't know. But the polystyrene tray isn't.

You don't see cling wrapped meat any more really. Most supermarket meat comes in gas flushed /MAP (Modified Atmosphere Packing) containers which give a longer shelf life but I have noticed Tesco selling some meat which is vacuum packed these days.

Still too much packaging but they have to dress it up nicely to attract punters I suppose

 

[Midnitehound]

But how many rucksacks does it take to hold 2 weeks' (or a month's worth) of groceries for a family of four plus pet food? I nearly fill the back seat of a full size pickup with just one week's groceries for just me and the dog. It takes about 10 plastic bags or 7 paper ones to keep it contained.

That said, I do like the rucksack idea in theory.

Just get two Vulcans, one for the front and one for the back!

 

[British Red]

You want to carry your shopping in a Start Trek character?