The Covid19 Thread

[santaman2000]

.......However my admiration of the US system has been severely tarnished having learned about doctor/pharmaceutical deals that drove nation wide opioid addiction, the butt covering use of expensive diagnostic testing at every opportunity that leaves people with huge bills, that can only be paid if they are employed, or pay expensive insurance, the denial of care by insurance companies and the need to make choices based on relationships between hospitals and insurers. .......

Actually this is where the US and the NHS are the most alike. Realize that the NHS is what would be considered and HMO here (Health Maintenence Organization) Basiaclly a cooperative of doctors and hospitals working in agreement with an insurance company. The insurance company paying better benefits if you see doctors and use facilities within their HMO system And only prescribing medications on THEIR formulary. That’s exactly what the NHS does: they pay entirely if you use their doctors and facilities and a reduced rate for doctors and facilities outside the system (if they pay at all) and likely don’t cover medications not on THEIR formulary. The difference here is that I can choose from several different insurance companies, or even with the same insurance company I can choose a non HMO plan.

In essence, the NHS is just one example of the type of insurances available on the US market. That said, I really know nothing of your private options there But from what I gather on this forum the doctors in private practice are for the most part merely NHS doctors moonlighting on their off time? So an already overworked staff gets even longer hours? And with the same mindset regarding what drugs and treatment are appropriate? If that’s true then the only difference I see is that the patient is now paying directly for the same service he would get on NHS free?

 

[Chainsaw]

I didn't see that WHO explicit denial, seems ridiculous to me but hey what do I know... I thought they may have just 'de-emphasized it' And I know you know that water vapour is just little droplets of water as opposed to big bogeys. As for floating around for many days, this is unlikely as they will come into contact with something at some point and settle.

Up here in gods country we are mandating masks in shops from tomorrow! Wonder why this is...?

 

[santaman2000]

@C_Claycomb I’m 63 and retired. Have been for over a decade. My insurance still covered my recent partial nephrectomy Ad will continue to cover the next 2 years of frequent follow up care. If I choose to have another specialist (an oncologist) also be consulted for follow up care it’ll cover that as well. It’s also still going to cover my upcoming cataract removal and lens implants.

 

[santaman2000]

.......Up here in gods country we are mandating masks in shops from tomorrow! Wonder why this is...?

In God’s country? As far as I’ve heard Texas isn’t mandating masks.

 

[TeeDee]

In God’s country? As far as I’ve heard Texas isn’t mandating masks.

I'd concur that Texas is the state to be in.

 

[Nice65]

I didn't see that WHO explicit denial, seems ridiculous to me but hey what do I know... I thought they may have just 'de-emphasized it' And I know you know that water vapour is just little droplets of water as opposed to big bogeys. As for floating around for many days, this is unlikely as they will come into contact with something at some point and settle.

Up here in gods country we are mandating masks in shops from tomorrow! Wonder why this is...?

The Diamond Princess was found to have coronavirus rna on surfaces 17 days after it was evacuated, so whether the water particles remain airborne or not is neither here nor there. The fact is the virus is now being classed as airborne and the WHO previously in denial are beginning to admit it.

One if the first things Thai authorities did in schools and buildings was switch off the aircon and ventilation systems and opened windows.

Link to the WHO story. It doesn’t expose the initial denial, that’s in the Campbell video where Dr Tedros begins talking about an airborne virus and is passed a note by another doctor. Tedros then retracts his comment.

Coronavirus: WHO rethinking how Covid-19 spreads in air - BBC News

The WHO has acknowledged there is evidence that Covid-19 can be spread by airborne particles.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[sunndog]

Once, not that long ago, I was very negative about the NHS and sang the praise of the US system. My grandparents in the US, having paid insurance all their lives with very little need to claim, were extremely well looked after in their final years. Better I think than they would have been in the UK. Certainly more responsively. In contrast, when my father suffered with kidney stones in the UK, our US friends were shocked and horrified at both how long it took to get a diagnosis (weeks of him literally screaming in pain) and then months before he had treatment. Responsiveness was dire. Turning up to attend a meeting with a consultant 15 miles away, only to learn the had been on holiday a week and wouldn't be back for another week.

On the flip side, my UK grandmother died of leukemia and years later my parents told me how, had she been in the US, it would have ruined us financially. My dad never had a job with really good medical cover while we lived in the US, and by the time he had those kidney stones, he was in his mid 60s, so retired anyway. I doubt we would have had the gold plated service that my grandparents had. My more recent experiences with both NHS and UK private care show that if you can pay, you can get fantastic service here, and that much of the problem with the NHS is the administration organisation, not the medical practices. I wish we had a better service, there is certainly room for it, modeled on other countries in Europe. However my admiration of the US system has been severely tarnished having learned about doctor/pharmaceutical deals that drove nation wide opioid addiction, the butt covering use of expensive diagnostic testing at every opportunity that leaves people with huge bills, that can only be paid if they are employed, or pay expensive insurance, the denial of care by insurance companies and the need to make choices based on relationships between hospitals and insurers. For every story about the NHS not prescribing an expensive drug, there will be as many or more of people in the US being unable to afford the drug they have taken for years because the price gets bumped up (like insulin).

I believe that the NHS has the potential to evolve and improve and I think there is widespread desire in the people and the government to see it run more effectively, we just don't know how best to do it. I look at the US system, and read comments about it, and it seems a lot of people in the US do not see room for improvement in their system. They wax on about how their doctors are the best, that motivating doctors with money is clearly the best system, glossing over the hundreds of low profile tales of woe with either high profile exceptions, or I'm-alright-jack personal accounts. It makes we want to push back on them. Every bit as much as I want to push back against people saying the NHS is the best in the world....its just that not many people here are so myopic and insular as to think that.

Now with the pandemic we see the US system challenged in a new way that shows cracks that were not so apparent before. Doctors there have complained about inconsistent handling of the disease from one area to another, even in the same state. Everyone is independent, so they all make up their own rules. Then there is the for-profit model, that makes (some) of the public distrust the truth of what the hospitals tell them. That people believe there are lies for profit...but that working for profit is best now seems very strange to me.

Chris

The NHS is much like America...both too big and unwieldy to run efficiently

 

[TeeDee]

The NHS is much like America...both too big and unwieldy to run efficiently

Certain states are run effectively. If you compare California Vs Texas you'd see massive differences in how States can be run.

 

[sunndog]

Certain states are run effectively. If you compare California Vs Texas you'd see massive differences in how States can be run.

That's my point mate...theres 50 of em!
Way too much for a single central government to cope with, much like our NHS

 

[Toddy]

The NHS is run by seperate, though interconnected, health boards though. Two of ours up here have had to had bail outs recently. That said the sums involved though huge to us as individuals are miniscule for health care in the larger scheme of things, both being somewhere around £18m mark.
The Govt. has also said that the use of private finance in building schools, clinics and hospitals is not value for money and won't be continued.

To be honest, I think as healthcare evolves then so must the way we provision it, but either way, anything that profits any other investor must really need hard scrutiny.

M

 

[Tengu]

Plastic pollution, I saw a lot on the beach here, but most of it seems to be from someplace else...or sometime else.

Clearing up now wont reallly mean an end to the problem.

 

[TeeDee]

To be honest, I think as healthcare evolves then so must the way we provision it, but either way, anything that profits any other investor must really need hard scrutiny.

M

You don't think competition generated from another investor may increase quality whilst decreasing costs? That tends to be the Outcome with healthy competition.

That being said - That doesn't seems to be the case for the Railways but has seemed to work in ancillary Healthcare sector such as Eye surgery.

I can see us moving more to a French/NZ based midway point ref Healthcare..

 

[Toddy]

I think that's very much the aim, but if you look at the last ten years when it's been in practice.....water boards, school buildings, healthcare.....tell me it's working to our communal advantage ?
I don't think we can.
If someone is profiting, then they start to cut corners to cut costs, they up their charges, and overall provision becomes piecemeal and not nearly so effective.

Nationalisation becomes lazy, but if it's accepted as providing more than a basic basic service, then I suspect that growing numbers think it's a better idea.
Society matters, it's very much a quality of life thing.

Water provision is very much a case in point just now.
In this country it is illegal to cut off someone's water supply (unlike America where there is a huge number of single parent families living in such a hellish situation) but one wonders just how long that will last since the water companies, particularly in the South East, are saying that they're not making enough to restore and renew the supply lines....which are losing at least a fifth of all the water they have through damaged and aged infrastructure. Funnily enough though they're still providing interest to their 'investors'. Why can't those 'investors' be the local council ??

The Victorians were the ultimate capitalists yet even they provided free water and sewerage throughout the land, almost as a basic right.
It often wasn't posh or individualised, but the provision was there.

 

[santaman2000]

I think that's very much the aim, but if you look at the last ten years when it's been in practice.....water boards, school buildings, healthcare.....tell me it's working to our communal advantage ?
I don't think we can.
If someone is profiting, then they start to cut corners to cut costs, they up their charges, and overall provision becomes piecemeal and not nearly so effective.

Nationalisation becomes lazy, but if it's accepted as providing more than a basic basic service, then I suspect that growing numbers think it's a better idea.
Society matters, it's very much a quality of life thing.

Water provision is very much a case in point just now.
In this country it is illegal to cut off someone's water supply (unlike America where there is a huge number of single parent families living in such a hellish situation) but one wonders just how long that will last since the water companies, particularly in the South East, are saying that they're not making enough to restore and renew the supply lines....which are losing at least a fifth of all the water they have through damaged and aged infrastructure. Funnily enough though they're still providing interest to their 'investors'. Why can't those 'investors' be the local council ??

The Victorians were the ultimate capitalists yet even they provided free water and sewerage throughout the land, almost as a basic right.
It often wasn't posh or individualised, but the provision was there.

Just because something is a basic right doesn’t mean it’s a governmental duty to furnish it. I have a right to keep and bear arms: yet the government has no duty to furnish them. Communal water is a new thing for most of the rural south (indeed most rural areas anywhere) White the convenience is nice, I, and many more when we had our own wells and septic sytems individually. My next house will be built in such an area.

At any rate, I certainly hope those areas with communal water retain the ability to shut off service to deadbeats. Whether it be a government owned system (such as here in Crestview) or a private organization. By the way, none that I know of are profit based; not even the private ones. Rayejr the private ones are cooperatives jointly owned by the community members. They might engage a commercial management company on a contract basis.

 

[petrochemicals]

The NHS is much like America...both too big and unwieldy to run efficiently

Like that damn chinese army, too big really inefficient , even them damned covid medics! Trouble is with the nhs is you pay for what you get, 2008 comes and the chokers are back on, every 2 years there is a "review" in the nhs for efficiency or failings. More money in for a long enough period and stop meddling. Efficiency and savings are not compatable with life saving medical intervention.

 

[santaman2000]

Like that damn chinese army, too big really inefficient , even them damned covid medics! Trouble is with the nhs is you pay for what you get, 2008 comes and the chokers are back on, every 2 years there is a "review" in the nhs for efficiency or failings. More money in for a long enough period and stop meddling. Efficiency and savings are not compatable with life saving medical intervention.

This isn’t just an NHS problem. It’s pretty much the reality throughout the world.

 

[Toddy]

Just because something is a basic right doesn’t mean it’s a governmental duty to furnish it. I have a right to keep and bear arms: yet the government has no duty to furnish them. Communal water is a new thing for most of the rural south (indeed most rural areas anywhere) White the convenience is nice, I, and many more when we had our own wells and septic sytems individually. My next house will be built in such an area.

At any rate, I certainly hope those areas with communal water retain the ability to shut off service to deadbeats. Whether it be a government owned system (such as here in Crestview) or a private organization. By the way, none that I know of are profit based; not even the private ones. Rayejr the private ones are cooperatives jointly owned by the community members. They might engage a commercial management company on a contract basis.

We disagree. Your system leaves families without access to clean drinking water, without basic cleanliness for hygiene.
It's like a third world country.
Paranoia over 'government' provision of basic amenities means that a huge part of your population become 'water poor'. That means that in this pandemic they can't even wash themselves at home. They cannot wash clothes, they literally have to risk their health just to have to fetch water for drinking, preparing food, and cleaning up.

Truthfully I find it appalling that you hope that people who cannot afford water rates are 'shut off service to deadbeats'.

Even when discussing a basic right such as water you bring up the right to bear arms. It's water, not armaments. We can live without guns, we cannot live without water.

I honestly think it hellish that you would condone families being without access to clean safe water.

I don't want to live in your world. I am beyond grateful that I don't.

I genuinely hope that America weathers the covid-19 pandemic, but I suspect that it's only going to get an awful lot worse before things improve.

 

[santaman2000]

'.......Even when discussing a basic right such as water you bring up the right to bear arms. It's water, not armaments. We can live without guns, we cannot live without water.........

A right, is a right, is a right. No. We can’t live without our rights. But if you don’t like the example I chose we’ll use others:

1) I have the right to freedom of the press, but the government has no duty to provide me with a printing press or any broadcast media.

2) I have a right to freedom of assembly (that one’s already been discussed on this thread) but the government has no duty to provide either a place for that assembly nor an agenda for it

3) I have a right to freedom of religion, but the government has no duty to provide churches, synagogues, temples, mosques, or any other place for that to take place.

4) As I’ve maintained for years, while I have a right to medical care, the government has no duty to provide it apart from a few specific exceptions:
a) someone incarcerated by the government (even in this case the government has the right, indeed the duty, to recoup the cost from the incarcerated if they’re able to pay)
b) someone to whom it‘s owed because the govermont was/is responsible for whatever injury or illness is being treated
c) a government employee who is owed insurance cover as a promise or condition of employment

The point being to rebut your inference that if something is a right, then providing it must be a governmental duty:

”The Victorians were the ultimate capitalists yet even they provided free water and sewerage throughout the land, almost as a basic right.”

 

[santaman2000]

........I honestly think it hellish that you would condone families being without access to clean safe water.

I don't want to live in your world. I am beyond grateful that I don't.

I genuinely hope that America weathers the cover-19 pandemic, but I suspect that it's only going to get an awful lot worse before things improve.

Families are absolutely entitled to clean drinking water. And food. And shelter. And loads of other things, some of which are enumerated and some aren’t. They’re not entitled to have me or the other taxpayers pay for it. However they ARE entitled to taxpayer funded protection of those rights (police and military preventing others trying to deprive them of their rights) They also have a duty to participate in that protecting those rights (which brings us back to “keep and bear arms”)

Regarding the virus getting worse; finally! You agree with me! (yes it’s going to spread until near 100% infection rate—-I’ve been telling you that most of the thread)

 

[TeeDee]

Speaking about Governed Rights whilst discussing Basic Human Needs for living ( Air, Water, Food ) isn't helpful.

I do find your country interesting to watch from the sidelines - but that;s much the way I also feel about Car/Plane Accidents - its more interesting to observe and figure out what went wrong but I'm damn sure wouldn't want to actually be part of it.