survival with no knife or means of making fire

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spandit

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 6, 2011
5,594
308
East Sussex, UK
yeah you made it clear, you are a city slicker regular camper

I resent your tone. I'd wager the vast majority of people on here live in normal houses/flats and work for a living. This isn't a survivalist forum - it's a broad forum that covers many natural crafts as well as all sorts of camping. You are obviously an experienced woodsman but don't knock others for not having your skill level.
 

horsevad

Tenderfoot
Oct 22, 2009
92
1
Denmark
Toddy all I can say is this. When Europeans came to America, and they traveled through the woods, we watched them doing crazy things that seem so unnessicary to us. We watched and watched them die from doing dumb stuff, and then we came to help them out, you might call that thanksgiven story, but it happen all across America during the travels out west. They did not want to hear our advice, and so they had to endure stuff that really seem pointless to us. So we as a people learn to allow them to make their own mistakes, because they refuse to listen to people who been living in this enviroment for centuries. It may seem myth or lore to the europeans but it is rooted i deep undertsanding how this enviroment really works, the reason we mastered it as a people. you go against the grain, then you got hurt, simple as that. We dont seperate wisom fromn the spirit world from the material world, it is all interconnected. I know I seem looney to you, and maybe my advice seems dumb because I dont live where the sun dont shine. You try living in 28 ft of snow with winds up to 75 miles an hour monthes on end, then tell me about living without fire, it can be done easily and comfortable with the right knowledge. it is still snow in the desert of Nevada, I know both extremes, I lived it 25 years now, I know what i am talking about But if you dont want to grow in better understand, why you even here. If you tell me about your ways and your country, I will gladly listen to your advice, like the other guy that talks about the land scape by the sea there is harsh weather. but there is ways around all that, how else to you think people did things befiore gadjets. But anyways, i am a native who is will ing to share my knowledge to forgiener which is really forbidden in my peoples thinking, but I am open minded, but kee it up and I will stop talking, and let you figure out things on your own. but the man who stops listen and learning is a man who is dead even though he lives, thats why Americans still cant get it right, even if they are the biggest country in the world with wealth. But we natives will sit back and watch, and let crazy people do more crazy things. they laugh at us as we are uneducated, but they are now just figuring out medical plant uses for cancers, etc we know for 1000's of years. We had our big cities, and left them to go back to the woods, to live a more simple life, which gave us time to focus on Go, and not ourselves. but people enslave themselves daily to work, etc. and they call us the crazy ones. why i even try on these websites to explain what we do, maybe i am crazy for trying to see people are people and sometimes they need a little ush in the right direction. so you want fire go right ahead, but one day, maybe you will be in a place where there is no way of making fire, what are you going to do then,. I have been on those places, and was forced to stay there. If you dont know how to live without fire in these places you are done in. but enough said. I will keep some of my knowledge a secert where it belongs.

Interesting.


I have read a great amount about the first nations/native, and I have yet to stumble upon a reference to a tribe who did not use fire.


Infact, I don't think you can find a single native culture from the Homo Sapiens Sapiens period who didn't use fire.


"...the modification of the American continent by fire at the hands of Asian immigrants [now called American Indians, Native Americans, or First Nations/People] was the result of repeated, controlled, surface burns on a cycle of one to three years, broken by occasional holocausts from escape fires and periodic conflagrations during times of drought. Even under ideal circumstances, accidents occurred: signal fires escaped and campfires spread, with the result that valuable range was untimely scorched, buffalo driven away, and villages threatened. Burned corpses on the prairie were far from rare. So extensive were the cumulative effects of these modifications that it may be said that the general consequence of the Indian occupation of the New World was to replace forested land with grassland or savannah, or, where the forest persisted, to open it up and free it from underbrush. Most of the impenetrable woods encountered by explorers were in bogs or swamps from which fire was excluded; naturally drained landscape was nearly everywhere burned. Conversely, almost wherever the European went, forests followed. The Great American Forest may be more a product of settlement than a victim of it."

Quote taken from: S. J. Pyne: "Fire in America: A Cultural History of Wildland and Rural Fire". Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press. 1982, p79-80

Or similar from another researcher:
"It often seems that the common impression about the American West is that, before the arrival of people of European descent, Native Americans had essentially no effect on the land, the wildlife, or the ecosystems, except that they harvested trivial amounts that did not affect the "natural" abundances of plants and animals. But Native Americans had three powerful technologies: fire, the ability to work wood into useful objects, and the bow and arrow. To claim that people with these technologies did not or could not create major changes in natural ecosystems can be taken as Western civilization's ignorance, chauvinism, and old prejudice against primitivism--the noble but dumb savage. There is ample evidence that Native Americans greatly changed the character of the landscape with fire, and that they had major effects on the abundances of some wildlife species through their hunting"

Quote taken from: D. B. Botkin: "Discordant Harmonies: A New Ecology for the Twenty-First Century". New York, NY: Oxford University Press 1990, p169

That the uses of fires in wartime could have detrimental effect on the concealment warranted for the specific wartime operation should - in my perspective - not be taken as any reason for avoiding fires in other circumstances. I don't intend to wage war on anybody anytime soon.

An even in a situation where concealment is warranted there are types of fire which will lend itself very easily to such uses. I would be rather convinced that if I were trying to hide somewhere, then you would not be able to see/locate my fire before you also would be able to see me.

//Kim Horsevad
 
Nov 29, 2004
7,808
22
Scotland
"...the rest of your life without fire..."

How do you deal with parasites in the food you find when outdoors? fish, meat etcetera.

Presumably it is generally quite warm and sunny where you are, does sun drying kill off all parasites?

As Toddy has mentioned our climates tend to less sun and more rain, cooking our food properly is really our only option.

Just curious.

:)
 
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Bushwhacker

Banned
Jun 26, 2008
3,882
8
Dorset
yeah you made it clear, you are a city slicker regular camper, out on a fantasy adventure of peter pan story books. why not get an RV and join the other site, RVing and call that camping to. you rag on others about being survivlaist and craftsmen woodsmen, but in reality you are just another holiday in the park city folk camper. but I said enough, figure it out on your own, I will be selective what I say for now on.

It's ok.
This isn't a p*ssing contest, well, maybe sometimes in jest. There's no medals to claim, no war to win, there's nobody to appease.
It's the internet, it's words on a screen. Jesus wouldn't get so angry now would he? Chill.
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
1
Hampshire
Interesting!

One sometimes forgets how much devastation indigenous peoples can cause to the "original" environment, as opposed to the romantic views often projected onto them - living in harmony with their surroundings etc etc. The American Indians have already been discussed; by all accounts, the aborigines in Australia managed to turn Oz into its present environment by 40,000 years of slash and burn (actually, little slash and much burn!). Places like Dartmoor in England are now cited as places to be protected in their "natural" state, ignoring the fact that they - and other moors - were once forests until the demand for timber wiped them out.
 
Nov 29, 2004
7,808
22
Scotland
"...A real master of survivlaist doesnt use fires... I true survivalist SCOUT needs to learn to live without fire so he is noy detached in a war zone, a fallout zone or end of th world zone...Fire can be seen, heard, and smelt from a long way away..."

Obviously once you've had a chance to look around this forum you will see that few of any of us expect to remain 'undetected' in a war zone. :)

That said, perhaps the environment you spend most of your time in informs your thoughts on the need for a fire and any knock on effect re 'detection'. However there have been plenty of folks who have found themselves wanting to remain undetected and yet would still make use of fire, Queen Nanny who did much to help the Maroon revolution (1730's) against the British taught her people to use only small fires, after dark, using specific types of wood, additionally she taught the importance of lighting decoy fires and setting pickets.

Similar systems were used by partisans during the Second World War.

Obviously the attacking forces in those days didn't have access to night sights and pilotless drones, but then most of the western armies currently fighting 'The War on Everything' do and it doesn't seem to have improved their hand any.

We are always interested to read about different perspectives and ideas, but this place really isn't about surviving TEOTWAWKI, but more about the skills we can use to get a bit more out of our time in the woods.

:)
 
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leahcim

Tenderfoot
Aug 2, 2011
92
1
USA
on other page I apolgized for my rude behavior, and ask for forgiveness, someone was deleteing my post then I was being attac for silly reason, but my other ost remain to make me look like an bottom.
I will remain more calmer, and only apply to people asking me questions a sandbender
most foods cn be eaten raw. as a butcher, we ate pork raw alot. the paraste cyts are easy to see, it is a green filled sac. just dont weat it. bacteria grows on the outside not inside, thats why raw steak is seared, but hamburger cook through because cutting surface exposes meat to air turns bright ed dueto oxygen. any meat freshly killed can be eaten raw if it is dark color. all brightmeat is sun dried, yes we have intenste heat. its been 111*F during the day here, so you can cook eggs by the sun. water can be puirfied with solar with turkey oven bags or clear plastic bottles.. we make sun teas all the time in the southeast and southwest America. we take sardine, minnows, etc, tear with fingers the guts out, then split in half and sun dried, then powdered and eaten. worms are done the same way. insects eatn raw or dried. Venison is cut thin as possible, and soaked in tannic acid from oak bark or pine bark to kill anything, then when dried, we mix Elm Tree bark power to meat, and this prevents spoilage for many years. the bark reacts with the fats and converts it to a stable enivorment not to rot. the berries we chose to add to mixer can also delay spoilage. if 140F is reach in food, all parasites dangerous tous it killed, thats is why meat and fish is made into a paste, flatten out like fruit roll ups to dry extremely fast. the result is layered in oak bark baskets so tannins further kill any parasites or bacteria.
I know your climate is harsh but the Yuroks here eat raw shellfish, raw salmon, raw seals, etc. It is custom here to eat raw oysters, mussels, limpets, and salmon., etc. gathering dew or fog is prtty safe here to. you got moe chance getting sick at resturantwith lemon wedges in your water. I know wet cold enviroments, I was in California for a while and going back next week to redwoods, the cimate is very simaliar to what you are talkign about. I collect fog with a lean to tarp making a channel at bottom and dig hole to collect water in a bark basket or cooking pot. I never got sick drinking fog. forgot to mention Black Water from tannins makes water pure to drink, we drank Okee Swamp water all the time, it is pure water, Springs are gaurded with life. ost major cities and towns were built on natural springs. So where indian villages. we use menthol plants like mints, oak bark water, birch bark water to purify water as well. Tree sap is a major plus. Sycamore, Aspens, Birches, Hickory, walnuts, maple, cottonwoods, all give off safe edible saps, with grape vines and thislte stalks. there is a lot of sfe water sources.
 
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leahcim

Tenderfoot
Aug 2, 2011
92
1
USA
but all this was so silly because the question was what to do you are caughtout ONE night without match and knife. Iwasnt meaning never to use fire ever, but for that one nightlearn to live without it. not to avoid it forever. I was useing scout knowledge to show it can be done for life, so one night is easy.
 
Feb 15, 2011
3,860
2
Elsewhere
on other page I apolgized for my rude behavior, and ask for forgiveness, someone was deleteing my post then I was being attac for silly reason, but my other ost remain to make me look like an bottom.
I will remain more calmer, and only apply to people asking me questions a sandbender
most foods cn be eaten raw. as a butcher, we ate pork raw alot. the paraste cyts are easy to see, it is a green filled sac. just dont weat it. bacteria grows on the outside not inside, thats why raw steak is seared, but hamburger cook through because cutting surface exposes meat to air turns bright ed dueto oxygen. any meat freshly killed can be eaten raw if it is dark color. all brightmeat is sun dried, yes we have intenste heat. its been 111*F during the day here, so you can cook eggs by the sun. water can be puirfied with solar with turkey oven bags or clear plastic bottles.. we make sun teas all the time in the southeast and southwest America. we take sardine, minnows, etc, tear with fingers the guts out, then split in half and sun dried, then powdered and eaten. worms are done the same way. insects eatn raw or dried. Venison is cut thin as possible, and soaked in tannic acid from oak bark or pine bark to kill anything, then when dried, we mix Elm Tree bark power to meat, and this prevents spoilage for many years. the bark reacts with the fats and converts it to a stable enivorment not to rot. the berries we chose to add to mixer can also delay spoilage. if 140F is reach in food, all parasites dangerous tous it killed, thats is why meat and fish is made into a paste, flatten out like fruit roll ups to dry extremely fast. the result is layered in oak bark baskets so tannins further kill any parasites or bacteria.
I know your climate is harsh but the Yuroks here eat raw shellfish, raw salmon, raw seals, etc. It is custom here to eat raw oysters, mussels, limpets, and salmon., etc. gathering dew or fog is prtty safe here to. you got moe chance getting sick at resturantwith lemon wedges in your water. I know wet cold enviroments, I was in California for a while and going back next week to redwoods, the cimate is very simaliar to what you are talkign about. I collect fog with a lean to tarp making a channel at bottom and dig hole to collect water in a bark basket or cooking pot. I never got sick drinking fog. forgot to mention Black Water from tannins makes water pure to drink, we drank Okee Swamp water all the time, it is pure water, Springs are gaurded with life. ost major cities and towns were built on natural springs. So where indian villages. we use menthol plants like mints, oak bark water, birch bark water to purify water as well. Tree sap is a major plus. Sycamore, Aspens, Birches, Hickory, walnuts, maple, cottonwoods, all give off safe edible saps, with grape vines and thislte stalks. there is a lot of sfe water sources.


That's more like it leachim, interesting post.
 

leahcim

Tenderfoot
Aug 2, 2011
92
1
USA
Blacktimberwolf, do you know why brits drink tea so much. We southerns drink gallons of it.. but during old day, cholrea, etc was a major problem, but the tannins in tea, and coffee where just right enough to kill any living parasite in the water. So if you had dangerous water, any tannic acid, especially oak, hence TANNING hides with oak bark, you have a strong disinfected. Tannins are someof the best antioxidants in the world. Tea was a major cure all for diseases just becuse of the tannin content. that is thereal reason people drank it so much. it is very common here to have 1 gallon tea sunbrewed with 2 cups of sugar. everyone here drinks it like water. just athought of history to explain what I meant about tannins.
i forget to mention, the oxygen in the air holds the bacteria and wen it hits the surface of the meat can taint the meat. thats why bright red meat is dangerous meat, not fresh meat at all. Lemon juice, parsley and onions mixed with raw meat was a big thing to eat as a butcher in New York City. we never got sick. sea trout have lots of worms in them, but once you drie the meat they die, plus they are big enough to remove with twig tweezers. Never ever touch the worms live.
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,966
4,616
S. Lanarkshire
In Europe up until the very recent past folks drank small ale, small beer. Basically a brew of only a couple of days, very low alcohol but enough to sterilise the drinking water.
A bottle of whisky's worth of alcohol is enough to sterilise an entire water butt. One of the reasons sailors drank grog, rum with their water.

The British and their international diaspora do drink a lot of tea, but that's more a hangover from the Empire. China, India and Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) all became major tea producers and exporters. Africa too produces some very good teas and they certainly were intended for the European market.

cheers,
Toddy
 

horsevad

Tenderfoot
Oct 22, 2009
92
1
Denmark
(...)

if 140F is reach in food, all parasites dangerous tous it killed,

(...)

140F equals 60 degrees celcius.

I do not know which area you frequent, or which forms of pathogens you might be likely to find in your area. As such the above statement could be true for your specific location; but is definitely not universally true.

If interested I can provide further information and references.

//Kim Horsevad
 

spandit

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 6, 2011
5,594
308
East Sussex, UK
I think you'll find the British drink tea because Getafix the druid used the leaves to make magic potion when Asterix and Obelix went over to help them fight the Romans...
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,966
4,616
S. Lanarkshire
So they did :D "A spot of milk in your hot water ?" and everything stops for tea :D
Terribly civilized custom :cool:

Besides, to make tea, we boil water, so it's a good thing all round.

Kim, I hadn't thought of translating the farenheit to Celcius; well caught :D

cheers,
Toddy
 

forestwalker

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
So they did :D "A spot of milk in your hot water ?" and everything stops for tea :D
Terribly civilized custom :cool:

Besides, to make tea, we boil water, so it's a good thing all round.

I read somewhere that the Objiway apparently did not drink water when travelling, bit instead made teas from "twigs and leaves". So you are not alone.

But the "whaaa! no hot caffeninated drink" is hard tp make people acccept in medieval reneactment circles...


Pasteurization? Still too low, but not too far below the (supposedly) nessessary temperature.
 
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