Survival... Indian time

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Tengu

Full Member
Jan 10, 2006
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Wiltshire
Lets not talk about the `Environment` since that is nature and quite beyond our control.

Lets us instead, talk about `Resources` as good management of those concerns us all, to an extent we can control what we use (or waste).

If we solved those problems then maybe the environmental ones will rectify themselves (or start new).

(I do not believe that Indigeous people had superior lives to us, far from it. We are far better educated and have better healthcare).
 

Woody girl

Full Member
Mar 31, 2018
4,550
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Exmoor
Lets not talk about the `Environment` since that is nature and quite beyond our control.

Lets us instead, talk about `Resources` as good management of those concerns us all, to an extent we can control what we use (or waste).

If we solved those problems then maybe the environmental ones will rectify themselves (or start new).

(I do not believe that Indigeous people had superior lives to us, far from it. We are far better educated and have better healthcare).

I agree with a lot of what you say here but being better educated? It is the better educated that got us in this mess with their big business and land grabbing money grabbing attitudes in the past.
Just because you can quote Shakespeare, tell the difference between Mozart and vivaldi, and do a complicated maths equation . If you have no concept of how to treat the land..... you are as ignorant as you might conceive any indigenous person to be.
Education has many facets as we are all aware. It is the old colonial attitude that "I'm better educated so I know better than you" that is at fault. "Educated man" has done it to every single indigenous population they've come across
. Thank goodness that some now understand about leaving the few uncontacted tribes that still exist well alone nowadays. Maybe they are the future of humankind.
(By the way I'm using you as a way of speaking not referring to you or anyone else personally).
 
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Tengu

Full Member
Jan 10, 2006
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Im not sure about Shakespeare, completley ignorant on music and pretty much anything past the four functions is beyond me.

(Just being able to do the four functions is impressive for most individuals through most of history)

But I can record things for future generations and I can discuss and analyse data, I can take advice from past generations too.

And I know not to annoy the Signalese; They seem a rather prejudiced bunch. Shame, as I would like to hear their stories.
 

TLM

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 16, 2019
3,125
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Vantaa, Finland
I don't think that education is the problem, the problem is greed for money and power. Then again knowledge and wisdom are not the same, there cannot be wisdom without knowledge but the other way round is easily possible and not uncommon.
 
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Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
9,959
2,665
McBride, BC
Indian Time. The UK and Europe have not seen neolithic life practiced for thousands of years.
My next visit to the UK will include a lot of museum studies of antiquities.
It has not quite ended here. Everybody learns from the elders as they always did.
The First Nations are far and away better educated about the natural world around them.

Food preservation to survive another year is a premium concern that can't be put off.
Probably the biggest political job that the chief had = ensure the welfare of all the families.

Salmon, shellfish, potatoes, berries, oolican oil and other materials must be harvested at the right times.
Every village had a big kitchen garden. Most still do when you know where to look.
On the plains, the gardens were for each family to work, not much community.
Growing the trinity of corn, beans and squash was one thing but preventing winter rodent damage was quite another.

The salmon harvest on the coast is very efficient. Thousands of fish are preserved.
Most garbage middens on the BC coast are mostly oyster and clam shell.
Often makes me wonder which was more important = salmon or shellfish?
Oddly, shell fish pieces might be used as inlay in wood carvings but never as the central subject of art and carvings to this day.

Every ocean beach has been culturally modified for shellfish. That takes some understanding of mariculture.
Little places, some of them. We used to dig clams in a sandy beach no more than 40' long and 20' wide at low tide.
 
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TLM

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 16, 2019
3,125
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Vantaa, Finland
The Sami were hunter/gatherers for quite a while though how long neolithic is not really known. They were nomads well into 1900's, reindeer hearding is fairly late, started in Finland in late 1600's.

I have met Sami who started to live in a house after WW2.
 

Toddy

Mod
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Jan 21, 2005
38,972
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S. Lanarkshire
@TLM
Funny thing that, isn't it ? that our ancestors could (and very recently in the scheme of things) successfully interbreed with other homo sapiens species.
They always do say that the mongrel is the healthiest animal :) Then again, there's nothing else killing off the other great apes but us :(

I do care about climate change, and I find myself enraged at the waste. We personally are accountable for our fuel use, yet look at the waste of fuel in motorsport. It's inane, and that's just one example.
Plastics ? we're on the slow road to weaning ourselves off them I think. Even China has now announced a ban on single use plastic bags, so even the enormous blocks of some countries are paying heed.....they're all too well aware of the pollution these days. Smog kills, and they're dying. Malaysia has just sent back container loads of our dirty plastic waste, so we can no longer off load our filth to somewhere else. You use it, you clean it up. No bad thing I reckon. Mixed media packaging, etc., has to end. It's presently almost impossible to recycle it.

Survivalism though ? I think BcUK has been a bastion of sanity among the internet sites of rabid hype and panic. On the whole we don't do the whole SURVIVALISM thing, that on this forum always comes across as 'get out asap', while bushcraft has always been rather a 'chill out asap', with an understanding of quiet competency and the sure and certain knowledge that a chilled out sit down and a think over a cuppa really does help one make rational decisions. That, underpinned with seasonality, and an healthy regard for many skills, is a better base than the zombie apocalypse.

Humanity thrives now because of farming. If society doesn't farm, in some way or other, even the best hunters go hungry and the young and old die too soon. Ask any 'indigenous' tribe and they'll tell you that very thing. We expect every one of our children to live to adulthood. In the past, the overwhelming majority of children died before they were five years old. In some countries it's still one in ten.....and that is still low compared to past numbers.

Smallholders, like the little Italian Grandpa of my son's girlfriend, who produces rich crops, feeds his family, and has enough extra to sell to make a living from it, or like British Red, rich in skills and practical knowledge, and prepared to work month in and out, year in and out, to improve his land and his produce, now that's real Survivalism.

@Robson Valley
Clever people have worked it out though. 1 shellfish = 1kcal, you needs hundreds for a meal.....so our ancestors harvested hundreds. Thing is though, the young and the halt and the old can collect shellfish, even if they can't labour to farm or hunt or fish.
However, for protein values it's a much better return. It works out between 15 and 20g of protein per 100g of shellfish as opposed to between 20 and 25g of protein for deer.....and a lot less effort in obtaining aforementioned protein.
I've dug in sites where we didn't even think to count the oyster shells, we just dug them up, bagged them and weighed them. Medieval and oysters, kind of indelibly stuck in my mind. Like the Neolithic and the whelks and limpets.

M
 
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Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,972
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S. Lanarkshire
The Sami were hunter/gatherers for quite a while though how long neolithic is not really known. They were nomads well into 1900's, reindeer hearding is fairly late, started in Finland in late 1600's.

I have met Sami who started to live in a house after WW2.

How did their population numbers vary though ? Herders, and those who practice transhumance (and one could argue that the Sami do really do that in it's way) are again seasonally tied to both the land and their 'crop'.
 

Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
12,330
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Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
It is thought that the Sami migrated into the Fenno Scandi peninsula only a few thousand years ago. Yes, they took up reindeer cultivation only a couple of hundred years ago. It is quite comples, the Saame history. Non Saame people lived in that part since the last Ice Age was ending, the western coastline became ice free well before the inland, and people have migrated from the european mainland since about 10-13 K BC or so.

The Sami have developed into two distinct cultures, Coastal Saame ( mainly fishing) and inland / Forest Saame ( hunting, later Reindeer farming).

The 'Europeans' and the Saami clashed and had a lot of violence between them.
The Norse hunted them like animals. Killed lots, and pushed them up north/north east. Not much DNA exchange untill a few hundred years ago.
 

TLM

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 16, 2019
3,125
1,647
Vantaa, Finland
I think it is established that the Pacific NW lived on the tidal zone, it was a fairly constant source of food. A good place in an ever changing world. I remember reading that the same applies to a lot of places on Europes Atlantic cost. Some of the oyster shell waste collections are several meters thick.

The present reindeer are of the fell variety, before hearding they were hunting the woodland variety. Their hunting pits can still be seen in numerous places.

The population changes are apparently not all that well known because records start quite late. If I remember correctly no large changes are known.

Reindeer are only semitamed and the heards are intentionally moved between pastures and they do it on their own. Sami moved between winter and summer villages partly independently of heards. They did follow them on maybe ten year cycle.

Also not all were that totally dependant on reindeer, some lived on salmon fishing more than others.
 
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TLM

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 16, 2019
3,125
1,647
Vantaa, Finland
Since the national boundaries became better established and marked also the nomadic Sami on the Atlantic coast had to change their way of life. It is really fairly complicated as the nations (Norway, Sweden and Russia) did not recognise the old tribal boundaries that are known to have existed.
 
Lets not talk about the `Environment` since that is nature and quite beyond our control.

Lets us instead, talk about `Resources` as good management of those concerns us all, to an extent we can control what we use (or waste).

If we solved those problems then maybe the environmental ones will rectify themselves (or start new).

(I do not believe that Indigeous people had superior lives to us, far from it. We are far better educated and have better healthcare).

I think that all depends on how you look at life Tengu, & what you want from it. Up until these indigenous peoples were invaded, the one thing that they had in abundance that we do not have today, is freedom.
Keith.
 
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@TLM
Funny thing that, isn't it ? that our ancestors could (and very recently in the scheme of things) successfully interbreed with other homo sapiens species.
They always do say that the mongrel is the healthiest animal :) Then again, there's nothing else killing off the other great apes but us :(

I do care about climate change, and I find myself enraged at the waste. We personally are accountable for our fuel use, yet look at the waste of fuel in motorsport. It's inane, and that's just one example.
Plastics ? we're on the slow road to weaning ourselves off them I think. Even China has now announced a ban on single use plastic bags, so even the enormous blocks of some countries are paying heed.....they're all too well aware of the pollution these days. Smog kills, and they're dying. Malaysia has just sent back container loads of our dirty plastic waste, so we can no longer off load our filth to somewhere else. You use it, you clean it up. No bad thing I reckon. Mixed media packaging, etc., has to end. It's presently almost impossible to recycle it.

Survivalism though ? I think BcUK has been a bastion of sanity among the internet sites of rabid hype and panic. On the whole we don't do the whole SURVIVALISM thing, that on this forum always comes across as 'get out asap', while bushcraft has always been rather a 'chill out asap', with an understanding of quiet competency and the sure and certain knowledge that a chilled out sit down and a think over a cuppa really does help one make rational decisions. That, underpinned with seasonality, and an healthy regard for many skills, is a better base than the zombie apocalypse.

Humanity thrives now because of farming. If society doesn't farm, in some way or other, even the best hunters go hungry and the young and old die too soon. Ask any 'indigenous' tribe and they'll tell you that very thing. We expect every one of our children to live to adulthood. In the past, the overwhelming majority of children died before they were five years old. In some countries it's still one in ten.....and that is still low compared to past numbers.

Smallholders, like the little Italian Grandpa of my son's girlfriend, who produces rich crops, feeds his family, and has enough extra to sell to make a living from it, or like British Red, rich in skills and practical knowledge, and prepared to work month in and out, year in and out, to improve his land and his produce, now that's real Survivalism.

@Robson Valley
Clever people have worked it out though. I shellfish = 1kcal, you needs hundreds for a meal.....so our ancestors harvested hundreds. Thing is though, the young and the halt and the old can collect shellfish, even if they can't labour to farm or hunt or fish.
However, for protein values it's a much better return. It works out between 15 and 20g of protein per 100g of shellfish as opposed to between 20 and 25g of protein for deer.....and a lot less effort in obtaining aforementioned protein.
I've dug in sites where we didn't even think to count the oyster shells, we just dug them up, bagged them and weighed them. Medieval and oysters, kind of indelibly stuck in my mind. Like the Neolithic and the whelks and limpets.

M

The "get out" is to get out of the city Toddy, bug out, move to ones sanctuary somewhere or just live in the forests & woodlands.
Keith.
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,972
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S. Lanarkshire
The "get out" is to get out of the city Toddy, bug out, move to ones sanctuary somewhere or just live in the forests & woodlands.
Keith.

Funny how all the 'get outs' are blethering away online, using technology they can't make, don't make, can't service, etc., and trying hard to convince us that the world is going to freefall into armageddon.
I start to wonder just what sort of mindset would actually welcome armageddon, and would they encourage it ?

I like living with the woods on my doorstep, I'd like a little more space, but on the whole I'd rather live at the edge of the village with no hassle to get to anything I need.
Hospitals, dentists, markets, schools, libraries, post offices, good internet, friends and family around. A community of mixed ages and peoples is healthy.
I don't want to 'get out' or to 'bug out'. I'd rather stay and help clear up the mess if things do go amiss.

Living solitary is not normal for humanity, it's how we dealt with the criminals and those whose religious fervour left them divorced from family life....but even they mostly founded their own small communities. Humanity thrives in community, that's normal for us.
 
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Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,972
4,621
S. Lanarkshire
I think that all depends on how you look at life Tengu, & what you want from it. Up until these indigenous peoples were invaded, the one thing that they had in abundance that we do not have today, is freedom.
Keith.

....and disease and injuries they couldn't cure, and a harshness to life that we wouldn't appreciate.....and constant warfare among their surrounding groups.

Until the Romans came here, the UK was the same, an island of tribes, and tribal warfare was common. Every single hill around has a fort on it, within five miles of my home there are double figures of castles and defended farm house sites. Only in the face of an outside oppressor do tribes make peace enough to become a 'nation'.
I know, I'm an archaeologist, but a heck of a lot of the background interpretation of society is anthropology. From the UK to the African continent, from Australia to North America, peace is a relatively new phenomenon, and freedom is an unknown concept except as a concept among those who kept slaves.

Freedom is a fine word, but it doesn't come as naturally as those who would have everyone bear firearms would claim.
Real freedom means a society that doesn't 'need' castles, or firearms, but only uses them for hunting or killing vermin, or target shooting I suppose, and where those who would use knives as tools don't face horrendous opprobium.

We're not there yet, but we're not facing the implosion of armageddon either, just global warming.
Is that not enough to deal with ?
 

Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
12,330
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Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
(TLM you forgot that the Finnish Government treated them badly too! )

The Saame live and mess up the environment just like the rest of the country they live in.
Do not think they live like some Environmental Saints. Or are survivalists.

They heat the houses, have cars, trucks, motorbikes, outboard engines, whizz around the nature in Snow scooters. Pollute just like you and me.
The majority of the Swedish Saame live in Stockholm.

The last N. American Indians I saw were working in a casino in northern Miami area.
Again, most N. American Indians live fully modern, polluting ways.

Fenno Scandia and the Kola Peninsula have two lndigenous people. People like us ( do not know what to call us in a PC way) and the Sàmi.
‘We ‘ (non Sàmi) have been living there for about 12 000 years and the Sàmi around 4 000 years.
Separately, very little DNA exchange.

We all used to live with nature. We all mess up nature today.
 
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Broch

Life Member
Jan 18, 2009
8,064
7,856
Mid Wales
www.mont-hmg.co.uk
@TLM

I do care about climate change, and I find myself enraged at the waste. We personally are accountable for our fuel use, yet look at the waste of fuel in motorsport. It's inane, and that's just one example.

I agree with nearly everything you say Toddy, but on the subject of motorsport you need to look at things from a more holistic view point.

I quote:

"A football World Cup or an Olympics, while not as obvious a target, also has a significant environmental impact. The carbon footprint of the 2010 Fifa World Cup, for example, was calculated at 2.8m tonnes - or 10 years' worth of F1 seasons"

So, maybe we should stop all international competitions, sports and liaisons - that will really help humanity come together :)
 

Toddy

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Jan 21, 2005
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Ah, good point :D

I just see extravagant waste when I see motorsport, so it was an easy correlation to use.
I feel guilty enough driving the car when I'm on my own; I routinely ask friends and neighbours if they want a lift to where I'm going :blush:
I know there were times I was glad of a lift, I'm just passing along a good turn :)
 
Funny how all the 'get outs' are blethering away online, using technology they can't make, don't make, can't service, etc., and trying hard to convince us that the world is going to freefall into armageddon.
I start to wonder just what sort of mindset would actually welcome armageddon, and would they encourage it ?

I like living with the woods on my doorstep, I'd like a little more space, but on the whole I'd rather live at the edge of the village with no hassle to get to anything I need.
Hospitals, dentists, markets, schools, libraries, post offices, good internet, friends and family around. A community of mixed ages and peoples is healthy.
I don't want to 'get out' or to 'bug out'. I'd rather stay and help clear up the mess if things do go amiss.

Living solitary is not normal for humanity, it's how we dealt with the criminals and those whose religious fervour left them divorced from family life....but even they mostly founded their own small communities. Humanity thrives in community, that's normal for us.

I totally agree in regards to a lot of modern gadgets not being sustainable. I only carry 18th century tools & equipment.
Being prepared is all about being prepared for what might happen or prepared for what you know is going to happen. If you are a part of a small community, in a small town, then that might be a good place to be & stay after tshtf. But cities are not the same as small towns, cities will become a death trap if society collapses. Sooner or later, I think man made global warming & climate change will destroy societies as we know them now. It has already been predicted that cities in Australia will become uninhabitable, the indigenous communities in South Australia are already asking where they can migrate to.
You are the best judge of what your area is like & how you think global warming will affect it. Climate change is all about extreme weather conditions, droughts, floods, extreme heat, extreme cold. These factors are already causing crop failures & domestic stock losses. As this worsens worldwide this will of course lead to food shortages. More people are now purchasing air conditioners. So when the heat gets extreme, & everyone turns up their air conditioning all at the same time, how do you think the mains grid will handle this?

Lets take a look at the modern world's dependency on modern technology, what happens when there is a long term blackout. With no electricity there is no water supply, no flush toilets, no lighting, no cooking on an electric stove, no fuel for motor vehicles, no shops or supermarkets operational so no food & no bottled water. There will be a rise in crime, home invasions, looting, riots, the streets will not be a safe place to be. The longer the blackout, the worse it gets.

Bushcrafters generally at least have some camping equipment, some depend on vehicle transport, this could be a problem! Traditional skills are extremely important, but many of these skills have been lost to modern gadgets. Modern gadgets for the most part are a waste of money, a waste of space & weight on your person & in your pack, & many are not sustainable. Relying on a ferocerium rod, or Vaseline cotton balls for making fire is simply not sensible. You learn nothing vital by using these modern methods. Batoning a knife is a modern bushcraft entertainment that is pointless & mindless & serves no practical purpose. It risks damaging a good knife, & a good knife is a useful tool to have. No decent woodsman or woodswoman would ever consider batoning a knife, mainly because there is no need. Wood of all sizes can be found in the forests & woodlands. I have even seen people who have cut wood with a saw just so they can split it by batoning a knife!!! This is NOT true bushcraft. Bushcrafters need to go back to being more traditional, good basic sustainable tools & good sensible practicle wilderness living skills. For many Bushcrafters, bushcrafting is no longer a woodland craft, it has become an entertainment only. This separates many Bushcrafters from also being a true woodsrunner. Someone who is able to live in the wilderness long term in relative comfort.
Keith.
 

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