Sub zero beginner kit

[Quixoticgeek]

I have on the drawing board plans for an expedition that involves crossing a glacier. The expedition has a fully trained guide who has kindly produced a list of kit to take. Now, being that I want to get maximum return for my beer tokens, and with a view to perhaps one day being able to venture into the even further north of the Boreal forests, I am wondering if the snowy veterans of the sub zero forum could offer any guidance.

Most of the kit is self explanatory, wool underwear etc... But there are 3 items where I would like suggestions on what sort of thing I could go for that meets the requirements of this expedition, but perhaps would also serve on future trips into the northern forests? If it has any impact on the answer, the expected lowest temp is -5°C + wind chill. Tho obviously this is somewhat warmer than the forests.

The list:

Trousers (2nd layer) – Strong and light material that dries quickly. Wind resistant and water
repelling preferable.
Rain Jacket or an Anorak with hood – Waterproof and breathable material. Gore-Tex or equivalents are
preferable.
Rain trousers – Waterproof and breathable material.

Any ideas?

Thanks

J

 

[Rich D]

If you could provide a bit more info it'd be easier to give advice. Where abouts is the glacier? Are you going to be at altitude? What time of year will you be on it? How much physical activity are you going to be doing?

Cheers Rich

 

[rik_uk3]

Where are you going on the trip?

 

[Viktor]

For trousers I would go for work trousers in 65/25 Polycotton mix they are extremely close to the fjällräven trousers but alot cheaper and if you want them waterproof simple wax them.
As for jacket I can't really recommend anything haven't found a rain jacket I can wear without sweating as so much that I could as well go without it.

And don't another tip don't over dress so you start to sweat. And -5°c is not to cold, almost summer.

Hope it help a bit and enjoy the trip.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

If you could provide a bit more info it'd be easier to give advice. Where abouts is the glacier? Are you going to be at altitude? What time of year will you be on it? How much physical activity are you going to be doing?

Cheers Rich

It would be Probably in May or June, at an altitude of about 1500-2100Masl, in Iceland. As for the physical activity, climbing several hundred meters.

J

 

[ex-member BareThrills]

The only jacket i would take up a glacier at -5 and would wear to the boreal forest at minus daft would probably be my paramo aspira but then -5 working hard would probably still be too warm. I use keela scuffer mountain trousers as a winter pair in this country and find them very durable and shed water pretty well after a nikwaxing.

I dont wear rain trousers as they make me wetter than rain no matter what they are made of. the keelas dry pretty quick with heat from my muscles

As others have said some idea of where, when and altitude would be useful

 

[Chris the Cat]

Stihl Chain saw trouser ( no need for the ballistic pads in the thighs ) 65-32 poly cotton.
Buttons for braces, high back toughest trousers I have found, been on two Arctic winter trips with me.
Longjohns underneath.
Surplus gortex over gear.
The German stuff is good.

Best.

Chris.

 

[Chris the Cat]

Wind AND rain is the biggest danger at those temps.
Wool mid layers for me.

C.

 

[Rich D]

It would be Probably in May or June, at an altitude of about 1500-2100Masl, in Iceland. As for the physical activity, climbing several hundred meters.

J

In that case layering is your friend. It's about being adaptable, you'll roast if the sun's out whilst climbing up glaciers and will be down to your bottom layer, but need to be able to wrap up when you stop. Likewise if it's stormy you'll need the waterproofs and the ability for them be as breathable (it's all relative) as possible, as well as a mid layer. At minus 5 ish you could encounter snow, rain, sleet or hopefully sun and will need a flexible layering system for it. I wouldn't be too fussed about going for the most expensive breatable waterproof outer layer, as they pretty much all perform to a similar level nowadays and you won't really need anything too technical (most of the bells and whistles to be honest are to lure the punters and grockles into buying them for walking round the park/to Costa/around Keswick in)

Sounds like quite different requirements to the dry freezing cold of the proper northern winter, but some of the more experienced artic guys will be able to give you much better advice on the requirements for that.

I've used my outers ranging from Pyrenees and Alps in the summer down to -30c in the alps in winter (although with vastly different base layers) my coats a thin goretex Lowealpine that's lasted me just over 20years and still works OK, even though it's not in this year's trendy colour, been through a few pairs of trousers in that time as crampons and waterproofs don't mix that well.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Sounds like quite different requirements to the dry freezing cold of the proper northern winter, but some of the more experienced artic guys will be able to give you much better advice on the requirements for that.

I think this is the crux of it. Finding the cross over point of kit that can be used for both.

I am guessing that down to about -5°C the goretex(or equiv) stuff that I wear to cycle in, is going to work ok for mountaineering type stuff. But it's not going of no use in the dry cold of the northern winter proper. Which would therefore put more emphasis on the under layers in terms of kit that can be used in both situations? Does that seem relatively sensible?

I like the all natural fibres approach that most use for the dry cold north. How much of that can be applied to the wet cold of a mountain/glacier in summer?

I am approaching this with a surprisingly empty kit chest for this sort of environment, but would like my purchases to have the maximum versatility.

Thanks

Julia

 

[Chris the Cat]

I wear wool under my Gortex and wool under my deep cold cotton or Ventile.
Nowt wrong with gortex as an outer in 0 to -10 or colder, I just find it does not breath well.
Cotton canvas or Ventile in deep cool for me, but not on a mountain 0 to -5!!

I am no mountaineer mind you!

da C.

 

[rik_uk3]

I think this is the crux of it. Finding the cross over point of kit that can be used for both.

I am guessing that down to about -5°C the goretex(or equiv) stuff that I wear to cycle in, is going to work ok for mountaineering type stuff. But it's not going of no use in the dry cold of the northern winter proper. Which would therefore put more emphasis on the under layers in terms of kit that can be used in both situations? Does that seem relatively sensible?

I like the all natural fibres approach that most use for the dry cold north. How much of that can be applied to the wet cold of a mountain/glacier in summer?

I am approaching this with a surprisingly empty kit chest for this sort of environment, but would like my purchases to have the maximum versatility.

Thanks

Julia

You don't see many high altitude climbers or Antarctic/Arctic workers using Ventile these days so don't dismiss the likes of Goretex. Remember too that the likes of Ventile is only cotton of a tight weave, it will leak, gets heavy when wet, goes stiff and is a bugger to dry.

You get snow IIRC due to the 'Anomalous Expansion of Water' which if aged memory serves me is between around +5 and -5 centigrade...you get snow. Below -5c its pretty much ice of various sized particles...go easy on me lads its been many years since I've really thought about this stuff.

You can use natural fibres like wool and you can use synthetics with great success the choice is your; don't rely on us lot as many here have a predisposition to going with natural stuff more than perhaps its called for. I'm not saying thats not a valid view but I would say is look at other forums where members do a lot of sub zero camping and not just a once a year 'jolly' to the frozen North or South as perhaps they may view kit via its performance more than trying to fit it in to a 'Bushcraft' focused view.

If I were you I'd drop a PM to twodogs and he'll give you some solid advice.
[h=3][/h]

 

[Bluffer]

My personal recommendation would be Montane terra pants with Paramo velez adventure light smock and overtrousers.

The Paramo outfit is available in natural colours (green) which may cross-over into woodland usage.

I'd recommend Paramo in preference to goretex so that you can avoid any requirement for removing a harness to adjust clothing, I'm assuming that you may spend some time on the glacier? (I have crossed some glaciers and snowfields in 20 mins or so, unroped and in a t-shirt)

 

[Teepee]

I would go with what Bluffer suggests or very similar for a flexible future use. The Paramo kit will serve as waterproof and windproof layers. If the admittedly hot paramo waterproofs are too much over the base trousers, then the paramos can be worn next to the skin and the trousers put in the pack. They have long zips and so offer decent venting. Synthetic rules for these conditions.

Paramo kit is excellent when the temp drops, very suitable for extreme cold. (Rannulph Feinnes used Paramo on his latest trip) Its more versatile than cotton or Gore-tex as it will still perform when Gore-tex or cotton are outside of their temp ranges.

From my own kit store and being able to pick clothing that was suited IMO, I would take for this trip;

Klattermusen Gere trousers
Keela Munro salopettes if due cloudy and windy, Berghaus Pac-lite overtrousers or Go-lite Reed overtrousers if it looks like it will be sunny.
Paramo Quito jacket

 

[Imagedude]

As a year round mountaineer who does a lot of winter climbing and also goes on a once a year jolly to the Arctic I would say that there is nothing better than Paramo as long as you don't get persistent rain. Goretex is fine as long as you are getting sponsored and can have a change of clothes everyday, Buffalo gear is great but not everyone's cup of tea. This year I shall mostly be wearing Ventile/cotton. Be sure to take advice from people still active in the field and ignore the benchcrafters who are still dining out on tales of a school trip to The Lakes in 1953.

 

[rg598]

From the description of your trip, it seems that you will be traveling quite a bit over difficult terrain, combined with some climbing. If that is the case, stay away from gear which is designed for stationary activity in cold weather. It will not work very well in those conditions. You will experience great transitions in your body's heat production. Traveling on a glacier, even in much colder conditions produces a lot of heat, which may mean you are moving in nothing more than base layers. On the other hand, when you stop, you need to put on some thick insulation. As a result, you need that insulation to be very portable. Look at what mountaineers use. I'm assuming you are good with other gear such as mountaineering boots with properly fitted crampons, glacier glasses/goggles, ice axe, etc. I have a few posts which may be of use, for whatever they are worth:

Winter Clothing-the Layering Theory Revisited: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2013/02/winter-clothing-layering-theory.html
Three Season Clothing: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2013/03/my-three-season-camping-and-bushcraft.html
Winter Clothing: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2013/03/my-winter-backpacking-and-bushcraft.html
Winter Gear: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2013/03/my-winter-backpacking-and-bushcraft-gear.html
A Beginner's Guide to Winter Camping and Bushcraft: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2013/12/a-beginners-guide-to-winter-camping-and.html

Specifically on the items you asked about, for pants I wear a pair of Mountain Hardwear nylon pants. They dry fast, but do not provide much insulation. I find I need very little insulation on my legs, especially in temperatures like the ones you are talking about. If it is much colder, I will wear a pair of Patagonia Capilene 1 long johns. As a shell, I use a pair of Marmot Precip pants with a full side zip. I find that to be the most important thing to I can easily take them off and put them on without taking off my crampons.

My rain jacket is a GoreTex Arcteryx Beta SV shell. It is also part of my regular three season layering system. You can see my different layers at work here: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2013/02/trip-report-mt-washington-failed-solo.html The same set up doubles as my regular backpacking clothing.

Hope this helps. If you need more (way more) information, look at UKClimbing.

 

[Kong]

If it is only mines 5 degrees then just wear what you had on in winter last year it was cold er here then than that

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Thanks everyone for the informative replies. Has given me lots to digest. I certainly like the look of the Paramo kit, and it comes in female fit, which is a bonus.

Thanks everyone.

J

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

The trick is to adjust layers to avoid sweating which wets the clothes, whatever material.



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