Stop and search

[BorderReiver]

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31657&highlight=legislation
This is the stuff that's being considered in Scotland; at this rate we may have the right to roam but the right to carry no fuctional tools

The train stations have been a bit of a no-go for carrying tools for a while, and camping stuff only if secured in the bottom of the pack. I know of someone who was asked to give his knife and axe to the guard and it would be returned when he got to Fort William.cheers,
Toddy

That, to me, is fairly reasonable.

Far better than being arrested at the station and having the tools confiscated.

It's a shame that that sort of action is not more widespread on the railways.

I won't even carry my SAK going to London on the train now in case they won't let me onto the train to get home.

 

[BorderReiver]

And another universal truth is that changing the law does not change the behaviour of people who set out to break the law.

It only restricts the rights of the honest and the law abiding.

I do actually worry about what this country is becoming.

Without getting into the realms of politics,it seems that we are now at the stage of legislating to make illegal things illegal.

Wouldn't it be great if the next session of parliament was set aside to go through our current laws and find some way to make them work before wasting time and effort in thinking up new ones.

 

[John Fenna]

But would this generate "feel good media reports"?

 

[BorderReiver]

But would this generate "feel good media reports"?

It would make me feel good knowing that the were doing something useful for a change.

 

[In Wood]

As has been said, we don’t need more laws we need the ones we have to work.
A total ban on knives would not affect the scroat’s who carry them for ill purposes, only those of us who carry them for a specific task/s.

Although it can back fire on them too, as one found out to his cost, some time back I was confronted by a “youff” with a knife and impolitely asked to hand over my valuables, after a very brief exchange of words and his aggressive advance, I left him whimpering with his own blade stuck in his right buttock cheek.

Why he placed it there I do not know as his hand never left the handle, although mine were on his arm at the time as I recall.

But this aside, we are the ones who will lose out, but I would like to think as has been said before, any reasonable police officer should be able to distinguish between a “youff” in a hoodie and a mature person with “outdoors” clothing and a pleasant manner and attitude, who when asked if carrying a “blade” replies “yes, a few and they are for the following purpose… and I am going to… and coming from…”
If we show we have nothing to hide and have a reasonable cause, should we really have anything to worry about? If it went so far as to go to court, could we not all provide enough evidence to show we had good and reasonable intentions?

Placing your blades with the driver of a train would be a reasonable precaution and should not cause any problems, unless you can’t find yours amongst the plethora of others as the train is full of like minded people off to the Bushmoot or Wilderness Gathering.

Gosh, went on a bit there…

 

[Draven]

See, I could understand this complaint about metal detectors + stop and search if it was, say, at Glendale Pier on the Isle of Skye. However, Glasgow Central? Ie, Glasgow, knife capital? People die frequently because of knife crime in Glasgow, and sorry, but nobody has the right to complain about a minor inconvenience if it could help to prevent even one death. If you're on your way to a bushmoot and have all your sharps confiscated or get arrested, that's one thing to complain about, but a metal detector is nothing.

Not that I agree with increasing laws about knives. By definition, criminals don't care about the law. The criminal who thinks "But - that's against the law!" is pretty poor at his job. I wish there were more of them, but there ain't and the government doesn't seem to realise that.

 

[Mikey P]

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31657&highlight=legislation
This is the stuff that's being considered in Scotland; at this rate we may have the right to roam but the right to carry no fuctional tools

cheers,
Toddy

What's a 'fuctional tool'? Is it rude?

 

[Mikey P]

I too agree with Mr Franklin, in that “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

Couldn't agree more with Mr Franklin...but the word 'essential' is the most important bit there. Are we arguing that the carrying of knives is 'essential' in any way?

We are using some very big words ('liberty', 'freedom', 'rights') to describe what to most of us - and let's get a sense of reality here - is a hobby/past-time/interest.

None of us (prepare to be shot down in flames) HAS to live of the land as a hunter gatherer in the UK. None of us HAVE to carry a knife. None of us HAS to carve a spoon in the woods. Or chop something. Or whittle something.

Don't get me wrong - I love my hobby/pastime/interest - but I'm not prepared to say that it's essential to carry a knife.

Oooo...too much coffee today...

 

[Wayland]

Snip> None of us HAVE to carry a knife. <Snip

I'd like to know how I'm supposed to do my job without a knife or a sword for that matter?

 

[andy_e]

Mikey, were you carrying a knife while diving in your avatar pic? (I assume that's you)

 

[Scuba Pete]

There are many situations where you HAVE to carry a knife. Eg for work, diving etc. I always have at least one.
There is nothing we have to do in life, well maybe die and pay taxes, lol. But what a law abiding individual wants to do with his/her spare time is up to them. Who is too decide what will be an essential part of someone else’s life.

 

[Toddy]

What's a 'fuctional tool'? Is it rude?

It was just to differentiate from the plastic lookalike ones that BR reckoned would do instead of real sgian dubh's and dirks.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Matt.S]

I hate the use of terms like 'knife crime', 'gun crime' etc. As already pointed out, the problems of violence originate with the operator, not the tool. Why focus on what tool was used to instigate the violence? Perhaps to categorise the crime, but then it's a meaningless categorisation; more useful ones would be 'gang-related crime' or 'violent crime'. To me, these terms are used to inflame the emotions of people who should know better for whatever reason -- to sell more newspapers, to get more votes, or to make the user feel better/worse.

Someone made a remark about equating carrying knives with carrying guns. To me, there is no difference between guns, knives, hammers, screwdrivers, table legs, wooden spoons and fresh fruit besides the obvious, literal physical ones. All can be used to do harm, all can be used to do good. Yes, I am one of those people you referred to who would have no problem with allowing more liberal carriage of guns. There has also been reference made to 'essential' and 'need'. Without delving into the dangers of justifying ownership, use and carriage of tools with such terms (do you really literally NEED a computer? What if you use it to look at child porn?) a better case can actually be made for allowing the ownership and carriage of guns than knives; they make far better defensive tools.

Such feel-good activities are very potentially harmful to our community. We are a minority, as we are well aware, and is rightly lamented. In 1988, after the actions of an insane man, controls on shotguns were tightened, certain types of shotgun were reclassiffied (some being virtually banned), certain types of ammuinition were reclassiffied so you had to get specific permission to buy them, and semi-automatic and pump-action rifles in all calibres other than .22 rimfire were essentially banned. This affected a very small proportion of the population -- those who had been through all the red tape and beauracracy to get the paperwork required, but it made for good headlines. Again in 1997 and 1998 most types of pistols were banned (along with a lot of other lets-make-life-difficult-just-because measures), again after the actions of a madman and again affecting only a small proportion of the population. But again, it made for good headlines. (Oh, and I'll let you guess as the actual effectiveness of these laws. As if anyone really thought they would be.)

Politicians by-and-large are whores for votes. If Bushcrafters end up under the bus to win Walminghill-on-the-Stink, this is the sort of issue that will be the excuse.

 

[sandbender]

new legislation is afoot to make carrying a knife in a public place an offence - as far as I can tell this removes the "good cause clause".

Can anyone provide a link for consultation documents etc. for any proposed new legislation?

The earlier thread 'carrying knives in Scotland' only quotes an off the cuff reply from Alex Salmond that "We (the Scottish government) are considering that (introducing an automatic jail sentence for anyone found carrying a knife)".

This is more likely to relate to the fact that some individuals have been found guilty of the offense of being in possession a knife in a public place but for various reasons have escaped a custodial sentence.

I think it unlikely that any change to the legislation will remove the 'defense of good reason'.

 

[Tadpole]

Couldn't agree more with Mr Franklin...but the word 'essential' is the most important bit there. Are we arguing that the carrying of knives is 'essential' in any way?

We are using some very big words ('liberty', 'freedom', 'rights') to describe what to most of us - and let's get a sense of reality here - is a hobby/past-time/interest.

None of us (prepare to be shot down in flames) HAS to live of the land as a hunter gatherer in the UK. None of us HAVE to carry a knife. None of us HAS to carve a spoon in the woods. Or chop something. Or whittle something.

Don't get me wrong - I love my hobby/pastime/interest - but I'm not prepared to say that it's essential to carry a knife.

Oooo...too much coffee today...

I think that yes, a knife is essential for me to carry; I could list all the times that I use it, but that would be long and boring. In my job, and in my free time, a little pocket knife (Opinel N&#333; 6) is my constant companion. In work, I have a dozen or so boxes that need opening most days, and the cardboard chopped up and disposed off, letters by the dozen, and yards of strings to cut. The occasional branch of a bush or tree that needs to be trimmed so it does not obscure the CCTV. You know the day to day stuff that having a knife in my pocket just makes life much easier.
In short, my little knife has a hard life. Ok a box cutter could open up the boxes, and scissors could cut the string, loppers could trim the branches, but who would want to carry all that around with them, all day, when a little pocket knife does the job just was well and is always handy.

As to the quote, sometimes it is the little things, things that may not seem essential, the unnoticed tiny mostly meaningless things that are taken first, almost unnoticed freedoms so minute in themselves, and seemingly harmless that their going seems not to be no ‘real’ loss. Right up until the point that you wake up and realise that you no longer have any freedom, or the power to decide anything for yourself.

We ware facing the stead relentless governmental sponsored erosion of ‘personal choice’, along with the media led destruction of the concept of ‘personal responsibility’. Nothing too big, or to ‘in your face’ just the drip drip drip, of your rights being slowly taken from you.

 

[Colin KC]

I think it's very relevant. If I take a knife in my rucksack by public transport, to Bushmoot for example, I am not going to be pleased when my guilt of a crime is assumed rather than my innocence. If you have been paying attention, new legislation is afoot to make carrying a knife in a public place an offence - as far as I can tell this removes the "good cause clause".

New moves are not afoot to make carrying a knife in public an offence!

The statement was (something like) "plans to make posession of a knife carry an automatic jail sentence"

However, no mention of exemptions or defence is made, so we must assume that this is just a poorly worded statement.

The statement was prolly meant to convey that an automatic jail sentence for illegal carry is being planned

 

[Minotaur]

Are we not being dragged into the Media storm, that yet again has no place in the real world?

Is the fuss about knifes, just to take our eyes of the gun problem? You know the things that are now completely illegal, except seem to be available on every major city street corner.

Has knife crime actual gone up?

Our we actual saying that the Teddy Boys, and Rockers were less armed, or less violent?

We currently have a bloke in charge of the most powerful British Governments ever, who has not been voted in by us, who is passing laws that no one agrees with, so be afraid, very afraid.

I won't even carry my SAK going to London on the train now in case they won't let me onto the train to get home.

That is why I carry one now.

I would rather risk lossing a &#163;20 SAK, than my &#163;100 Leatherman.

I am just starting to do my Network Profesional course, and have always noticed that Computer people wear Leathermans, so if I have an excuse to carry one for work, could they actual refuse me travel, after you have bought your ticket. They really need to work this out, and publish a set of guidelines for travel.

 

[phaserrifle]

To me, there is no difference between guns, knives, hammers, screwdrivers, table legs, wooden spoons and fresh fruit besides the obvious, literal physical ones.

I would say there is a difference between some of them. a gun is a wepon, whether it's for use against rabitts, pidgeons or people, and so should be restricted, and some types (eg most pistols) especialy so as they have little use outside of wounding/killing people. some knives also fall into this catagory (eg push daggers). the other items are all tools or objects that could be used as a wepon, just as allmost any item can. The banning of all wepons would require the banning of human kind itself, which would make everyones lives somewhat difficult.

 

[Matt.S]

I would say there is a difference between some of them. a gun is a wepon, whether it's for use against rabitts, pidgeons or people, and so should be restricted, and some types (eg most pistols) especialy so as they have little use outside of wounding/killing people. some knives also fall into this catagory (eg push daggers). the other items are all tools or objects that could be used as a wepon, just as allmost any item can. The banning of all wepons would require the banning of human kind itself, which would make everyones lives somewhat difficult.

http://www.sportingguns.com.au/Pistols/Steyr/2.html this pistol isn't designed for use against people. In fact it has several features that makes it very unsuitable for use against people. Guns are often used for target shooting, and many such guns are like the one above. I'm not trying to get you into a semantics battle here, but am pointing out that you made a very sweeping statement which is not true. Besides, there are situations where it may be neccesary to harm people, regrettably. Why do you think the police and army like them so much.

 

[Minotaur]

Has anyone started to sweat over what David Camaron has said.

Nice to see our future leader is as much of an idiot as the current one.

Anyone stopped with a knife, and without a good excuse, jail time, but who decides if it is a good excuse, the judge, if you have the bottle to let it go that far.