Solo trip
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I usually sleep in boxers, slept in thermals but was cold, mostly my knees, i cant get the shoulder baffle done up as it only comes to my chest 
a better sleeping bag is on the cards, i may go camping for the new year, just have to persuade my girlfriend 1st!!
a better sleeping bag is on the cards, i may go camping for the new year, just have to persuade my girlfriend 1st!!
If you're finding yourself uncomfortable in a sleeping bag (because of size or anything else) I suggest going with a good quality back country quilt.
You can make them yourself if you're handy enough -- here's a link with one set of directions: http://www.backpacking.net/makegear/make-quilt/index.html and there are more on the net.
I've never been comfortable in bags -- I've got scoliosis and have to shift a LOT when I sleep.
I started using quilts about 10 years ago and I can't imagine ever going back to the bondage of a typical sleeping bag.
My main one is a down quilt by Western Mountaineering and I've slept in complete comfort in it down to about 15 degrees (F) and with a silk liner or wool blanket down to 0 degrees (F).
I'm horrible with a sewing machine or I would have made my own Polarguard version by now. Someday I hope to prevail upon my wife to give it a shot.
And on a weight-to-warmth ratio, quilts beat bags. The loft of the insulation on the underside of a bag gets crushed and is worthless as you lay on it. Your pad (or platform) does the insulating work on the bottom of you under any circumstances -- so why bother with the useless bottom of the sleeping bag.
One friend has made himself three lightweight quilts -- two weigh 1.6 pounds, the third 2.3 pounds -- and depending on the weather be brings one, two or three of them on a trip (they button together at the edges). With all three he can get down to sub-zero temps comfortably. It's a flexible sleeping system and packs small. He has one of the light ones that buttons into an insulated cape for around camp. Very neat.
Once you go to quilts, I doubt you'll ever go back to bags.
You can make them yourself if you're handy enough -- here's a link with one set of directions: http://www.backpacking.net/makegear/make-quilt/index.html and there are more on the net.
I've never been comfortable in bags -- I've got scoliosis and have to shift a LOT when I sleep.
I started using quilts about 10 years ago and I can't imagine ever going back to the bondage of a typical sleeping bag.
My main one is a down quilt by Western Mountaineering and I've slept in complete comfort in it down to about 15 degrees (F) and with a silk liner or wool blanket down to 0 degrees (F).
I'm horrible with a sewing machine or I would have made my own Polarguard version by now. Someday I hope to prevail upon my wife to give it a shot.
And on a weight-to-warmth ratio, quilts beat bags. The loft of the insulation on the underside of a bag gets crushed and is worthless as you lay on it. Your pad (or platform) does the insulating work on the bottom of you under any circumstances -- so why bother with the useless bottom of the sleeping bag.
One friend has made himself three lightweight quilts -- two weigh 1.6 pounds, the third 2.3 pounds -- and depending on the weather be brings one, two or three of them on a trip (they button together at the edges). With all three he can get down to sub-zero temps comfortably. It's a flexible sleeping system and packs small. He has one of the light ones that buttons into an insulated cape for around camp. Very neat.
Once you go to quilts, I doubt you'll ever go back to bags.
I usually sleep in boxers, slept in thermals but was cold, mostly my knees, i cant get the shoulder baffle done up as it only comes to my chest
Oh, and your girlfriend remark reminded me of another advantage of quilts: when you go with your sweetie you can both sleep together under it and be comfortable. Double the body heat -- and all the benefits of snuggling as well
i saw one the other day as i was stood wearing a tshirt in woolworths!!!!
yes certainly why do lifeboat crews wear immersion suits, why dont they just wear swimming trunks?
because the layering system works many thin layers are better than one thick layer eg a sleeping bag.
I do see your point but why not one very thick pair of swimming trunks ?
In the past i have opted for the layer system but what is strange is when i wear my snug pack softie with lots of layers on underneath i feel colder than when i just wear a base layer and the jacket alone, this i feel is the same with the sleeping bags. I wonder if the extra layers approach spreads the heat over several layers casuing the inner layer to feel colder ? Where as if there is only one very "good" insulating layer then the warmer air is trapped closer to you rather than dispersed throughout the layers...
your thoughts ?
In the past i have opted for the layer system but what is strange is when i wear my snug pack softie with lots of layers on underneath i feel colder than when i just wear a base layer and the jacket alone, this i feel is the same with the sleeping bags. I wonder if the extra layers approach spreads the heat over several layers casuing the inner layer to feel colder ? Where as if there is only one very "good" insulating layer then the warmer air is trapped closer to you rather than dispersed throughout the layers...
your thoughts ?
How is that relevant to what to wear inside a sleeping bag????
To quote wikipedia
An immersion suit, or survival suit (or more specifically an immersion survival suit), is a special type of waterproof dry suit that protects the wearer from hypothermia from immersion in cold water, after abandoning a sinking or capsized vessel, especially in the open ocean. They usually have built-on feet (boots), and a hood, and either built-on gloves or watertight wrist seals.
If you were going to compare a sleeping bag to anything along those lines then it would be closer to neoprene. One single layer designed to keep you warm in cold water by trapping a layer of water between the suit and your skin. Your body warms the water in contact with your body, keeping you warm. As a sleeping bag does with air.
Edit, Just to add that i am an advocate of the layering system for most things, just not within a sleeping bag.
I'm with H20 on the issue of wearing clothes inside of bags -- it's pretty common practice here in America and it's almost uniformly practiced by the ultra-light backpacking group.
I can't remember the last time I was with someone who stripped skivvies (in cold weather) before climbing in a bag. The notion that it's better to do so is an old wives tale that has, unfortunately, been carried on by tradition bound military drills until recent years when more modern thinking arrived.
The idea that wearing clothes traps heat that should be trapped by a sleeping bag supposes that for some magical reason heat trapped by the bag is superior to heat trapped by clothes.
But that ignores the fact that it doesn't matter a whit *what* traps the heat as long as the heat is trapped by *something* before it radiates into the open air.
In other words, it doesn't make sense to say one form of heat transfer trap is better than another. Except in this case: in cold environments it is always better to trap heat as closely to the body as one can.
(That's also why you want to make debris and show shelters as snug as possible -- less air volume to be warmed up by whatever heat escapes from your primary insulation.)
Wearing clothes inside of a bag traps heat immediately next to your body -- a good thing, the closer the better -- and ideally the bag should then trap whatever escapes from the clothes. As long as you prevent the transfer to the open air (retain your radiant heat) you're ahead of the game.
There is another very significant advantage to wearing clothes inside your bag -- or quilt as I prefer to use -- and that happens if your clothes are damp.
Sleeping in damp clothes inside the bag almost always dries them by the morning because of your body heat. If you hang them in your shelter -- in anything by the most arid circumstances -- you end up putting on wet clothes in the morning. Not a good idea at best, and in some environments a downright dangerous idea.
My 2 cents....
I can't remember the last time I was with someone who stripped skivvies (in cold weather) before climbing in a bag. The notion that it's better to do so is an old wives tale that has, unfortunately, been carried on by tradition bound military drills until recent years when more modern thinking arrived.
The idea that wearing clothes traps heat that should be trapped by a sleeping bag supposes that for some magical reason heat trapped by the bag is superior to heat trapped by clothes.
But that ignores the fact that it doesn't matter a whit *what* traps the heat as long as the heat is trapped by *something* before it radiates into the open air.
In other words, it doesn't make sense to say one form of heat transfer trap is better than another. Except in this case: in cold environments it is always better to trap heat as closely to the body as one can.
(That's also why you want to make debris and show shelters as snug as possible -- less air volume to be warmed up by whatever heat escapes from your primary insulation.)
Wearing clothes inside of a bag traps heat immediately next to your body -- a good thing, the closer the better -- and ideally the bag should then trap whatever escapes from the clothes. As long as you prevent the transfer to the open air (retain your radiant heat) you're ahead of the game.
There is another very significant advantage to wearing clothes inside your bag -- or quilt as I prefer to use -- and that happens if your clothes are damp.
Sleeping in damp clothes inside the bag almost always dries them by the morning because of your body heat. If you hang them in your shelter -- in anything by the most arid circumstances -- you end up putting on wet clothes in the morning. Not a good idea at best, and in some environments a downright dangerous idea.
My 2 cents....
Wet clothes......sleeping bag????????????
Cold Weather Camping
1. REMEMBER: The sleeping bag doesn't heat you, you heat it. So use this rule, "Thickness is warmth", to keep in heat. If you're cold, add some more insulation (blankets, clothes).
2. DO NOT SLEEP IN BOTTOM OF BAG: Your breath contains water. If you close your bag with your head inside, then this water sticks to the bag. Wear a hat to keep your head warm.
3. CHANGE CLOTHES: NEVER sleep in wet clothes. Even perspiration will chill you at night.
4. EAT A CANDY BAR: This increases your metabolism (moves your blood faster) and it helps keep you warm.
5. GO TO THE BATHROOM BEFORE BED: This saves you a middle of the night trip in the cold.
6. DO NOT DRY "WET" CLOTHES IN BAG: Moisture will travel from wet clothes to sleeping bag. If your clothes are wet and you must wear them then next day you must protect them from freezing. Put them in a plastic bag and put them under the foot of your sleeping bag.
7. PUT TOMORROW'S CLOTHES UNDER BAG: This heats up clothes for tomorrow's cold morning and also provides more insulation.
8. FLUFF UP YOUR BAG: Always fluff up bag before using to create the thickness important in keeping warm.
9. MOST IMPORTANT, KEEP IT DRY: Keep all your sleeping gear dry and follow these rules, and winter camp should prove to be a rewarding experience.
10. COLD AIR SINKS - Try to place your campsite on slightly higher ground than the rest of your surroundings. Try to choose a protected site if it is snowing or the wind is blowing
SLEEPING GEAR
If you do not have a winter sleeping bag you can use two summer bags, one inside the other. Or, you can use several blankets in addition to your summer bag. Wool blankets are best. The blankets should be folded to fit inside the bag (best) or around it.
Natural fiber sleeping bags (including down) do not maintain their insulation properties when damp. Be sure to keep them dry!
A mummy style bag is warmer than a rectangular, as there is less space for your body to heat. Also, most mummy bags have a hood to help protect your head.
If you only have a rectangular sleeping bag, bring an extra blanket to pack around your shoulders in the opening to keep air from getting in.
Scouting literature shows how to make foam rubber sleeping systems.
Putting your head under the covers will increase the humidity in the bag that will reduce the insulation properties of the bag.
Air out your sleeping bag and tent, when weather permits. Perspiration and breath condense in the tent at night and the water will reduce insulating properties of your bag.
Hang your sleeping bag up or just lay it out, between trips, so the filling will not compress and lose its insulating properties.
Whatever you sleep in, you need to be insulated from the ground or snow. A good rule of thumb is that you want 2 to 3 times the insulation below you as you have over you. A closed cell foam pad (usually blue, about $6) is essential to get you away from the cold snow and ground. Open cell foam (the familiar old foam rubber) also makes good insulation, but absorbs moisture.
Use a ground cloth to keep ground moisture from your bag. Your body will warm up snow and frozen ground to a point were moisture can become a serious problem. A plastic sheet or tarp works best.
Don't use an air mattress or cot during the winter. Cold air will be above and below you if you do.
Respect for nature and BSA's low impact camping policy discourages using tree boughs for bedding.
SLEEPING ATTIRE
You can use pajamas, long underwear, sweats, etc. to sleep warm depending on the quality of your bag. Don't forget socks. NEVER WEAR ANYTHING TO BED YOU HAVE WORN DURING THE DAY. This is so you go to bed as dry as possible (no perspiration in your clothes) and start the next day dry also.
Wear a stocking cap to bed in order to reduce heat loss or wear a loose fitting hooded pull over type sweatshirt to sleep in. Here again, it should be one you have not used during the day.
Before you get out of bed bring the clothes you plan to wear inside your bag and warm them up some before dressing.
OTHER ITEMS
Exercise before bedding down to increase body heat. This will help to warm your bag quicker. Be careful not to start perspiring.
It is never fun to wake up in the night having to go to the bathroom, especially when it is 10 below. As much as possible take care of this before you go to bed. If you do have to urinate in the night, it is possible to do this without having to get out of your sleeping bag. If you are VERY CAREFUL you can use a plastic bottle with a tight lid, a zip lock plastic bag or even a commercial urinal. Remember to empty the bottle away from the camp in the morning.
It is a good idea to keep warm drinks available in a water-tight bottle or canteen. If you are sure the bottle is water-tight, fill it with hot water (not boiling) and keep it in your sleeping bag to keep it and you warm. If you wake up in the night, it may be because you started to chill do to lack of energy in your body or dehydration. A warm drink will taste mighty good.
Cold Weather Camping
1. REMEMBER: The sleeping bag doesn't heat you, you heat it. So use this rule, "Thickness is warmth", to keep in heat. If you're cold, add some more insulation (blankets, clothes).
2. DO NOT SLEEP IN BOTTOM OF BAG: Your breath contains water. If you close your bag with your head inside, then this water sticks to the bag. Wear a hat to keep your head warm.
3. CHANGE CLOTHES: NEVER sleep in wet clothes. Even perspiration will chill you at night.
4. EAT A CANDY BAR: This increases your metabolism (moves your blood faster) and it helps keep you warm.
5. GO TO THE BATHROOM BEFORE BED: This saves you a middle of the night trip in the cold.
6. DO NOT DRY "WET" CLOTHES IN BAG: Moisture will travel from wet clothes to sleeping bag. If your clothes are wet and you must wear them then next day you must protect them from freezing. Put them in a plastic bag and put them under the foot of your sleeping bag.
7. PUT TOMORROW'S CLOTHES UNDER BAG: This heats up clothes for tomorrow's cold morning and also provides more insulation.
8. FLUFF UP YOUR BAG: Always fluff up bag before using to create the thickness important in keeping warm.
9. MOST IMPORTANT, KEEP IT DRY: Keep all your sleeping gear dry and follow these rules, and winter camp should prove to be a rewarding experience.
10. COLD AIR SINKS - Try to place your campsite on slightly higher ground than the rest of your surroundings. Try to choose a protected site if it is snowing or the wind is blowing
SLEEPING GEAR
If you do not have a winter sleeping bag you can use two summer bags, one inside the other. Or, you can use several blankets in addition to your summer bag. Wool blankets are best. The blankets should be folded to fit inside the bag (best) or around it.
Natural fiber sleeping bags (including down) do not maintain their insulation properties when damp. Be sure to keep them dry!
A mummy style bag is warmer than a rectangular, as there is less space for your body to heat. Also, most mummy bags have a hood to help protect your head.
If you only have a rectangular sleeping bag, bring an extra blanket to pack around your shoulders in the opening to keep air from getting in.
Scouting literature shows how to make foam rubber sleeping systems.
Putting your head under the covers will increase the humidity in the bag that will reduce the insulation properties of the bag.
Air out your sleeping bag and tent, when weather permits. Perspiration and breath condense in the tent at night and the water will reduce insulating properties of your bag.
Hang your sleeping bag up or just lay it out, between trips, so the filling will not compress and lose its insulating properties.
Whatever you sleep in, you need to be insulated from the ground or snow. A good rule of thumb is that you want 2 to 3 times the insulation below you as you have over you. A closed cell foam pad (usually blue, about $6) is essential to get you away from the cold snow and ground. Open cell foam (the familiar old foam rubber) also makes good insulation, but absorbs moisture.
Use a ground cloth to keep ground moisture from your bag. Your body will warm up snow and frozen ground to a point were moisture can become a serious problem. A plastic sheet or tarp works best.
Don't use an air mattress or cot during the winter. Cold air will be above and below you if you do.
Respect for nature and BSA's low impact camping policy discourages using tree boughs for bedding.
SLEEPING ATTIRE
You can use pajamas, long underwear, sweats, etc. to sleep warm depending on the quality of your bag. Don't forget socks. NEVER WEAR ANYTHING TO BED YOU HAVE WORN DURING THE DAY. This is so you go to bed as dry as possible (no perspiration in your clothes) and start the next day dry also.
Wear a stocking cap to bed in order to reduce heat loss or wear a loose fitting hooded pull over type sweatshirt to sleep in. Here again, it should be one you have not used during the day.
Before you get out of bed bring the clothes you plan to wear inside your bag and warm them up some before dressing.
OTHER ITEMS
Exercise before bedding down to increase body heat. This will help to warm your bag quicker. Be careful not to start perspiring.
It is never fun to wake up in the night having to go to the bathroom, especially when it is 10 below. As much as possible take care of this before you go to bed. If you do have to urinate in the night, it is possible to do this without having to get out of your sleeping bag. If you are VERY CAREFUL you can use a plastic bottle with a tight lid, a zip lock plastic bag or even a commercial urinal. Remember to empty the bottle away from the camp in the morning.
It is a good idea to keep warm drinks available in a water-tight bottle or canteen. If you are sure the bottle is water-tight, fill it with hot water (not boiling) and keep it in your sleeping bag to keep it and you warm. If you wake up in the night, it may be because you started to chill do to lack of energy in your body or dehydration. A warm drink will taste mighty good.
Yes, absolutely. It's been a common practice for years among outdoorsmen on this side of the pond.
Your clothes dry very quickly in the bag with you and you're not exposed to hypothermia because of the external insulation of the bag. The reason you don't want to breathe in the bag if you can avoid it is a different issue altogether.
If you camp in bitterly cold environments -- or snowy environments as I do often -- getting your clothes dry over night is of the utmost importance. It can the difference between life and death at worse, misery and pleasure at best.
If you're in a place where you can use a fire, fine. But if you practice low impact camping and don't make fires, sleeping in your clothes dries them out (and no, you DO NOT sleep cold as a result if you have proper insulation.)
As for the rest of your list: I can't imagine lugging around all the stuff you're talking about in that list. I travel light and happy and far and do so in extremely cold environments (like ANWR).
Seriously, next time you on a trip, give sleeping in your clothes a try, you'll like the results.
For what it's worth, it's what the mountain men did as well
Thats not my list, i don't particularly carry too much either, a 35ltr rucksack is all i ever use. Its something i came across to print out for the cadets as a guide for camping.
I didn't realise you were across the pond. An oversight on my part. I've always been taught wet = bad with regards to sleeping and as such never got my head down wet.
Although one time i got soaked when a tent leaked. I was fairly warm as long as i hugged the bag tight and didn't move. I't was not pleasant getting out of it though on a cold november morning.
I didn't realise you were across the pond. An oversight on my part. I've always been taught wet = bad with regards to sleeping and as such never got my head down wet.
Although one time i got soaked when a tent leaked. I was fairly warm as long as i hugged the bag tight and didn't move. I't was not pleasant getting out of it though on a cold november morning.
Thanks for clearing that up! Traveling light generally is safer too...
Mind you, I prefer to sleep dry (in my clothes, though, always) than wet. But sometimes you have to bed down wet. You nearly always wake up dry, though!
(Although I can show you some spots on the Northern California coast where you'll be wet day and night, non-stop -- thank god for wool and polarguard...)
Actually, I should have amended my comments to mention that if I were using a down sleeping bag, the policy is a little different because the bottom of a down bag is so hard to dry. Synthetics and my precious backcountry quilts and/or wool blankets aren't an issue in this respect.
In any event, most people, if they're in an environment when it will be wet and cold are better off leaving down at home anyway. I mistakenly took a down bag cross country skiing camping once years ago: a something I'll never repeat! Great skiing, but the worst 6 days of sleeping in my life... Icy hell....
Although one time i got soaked when a tent leaked. I was fairly warm as long as i hugged the bag tight and didn't move. I't was not pleasant getting out of it though on a cold november morning.
I can relate
