Silva compasses made in China?

[Doc]

I've always thought that the compass is one item worth spending money on - for the same reason I wouldn't buy a budget motorcycle helmet. I use a Silva because of their good reputation; I would also rely on a Suunto or Recta.

I see some posts on American fora complaining about Silva Ranger compasses now being made in China, and being allegedly of lower quality. All mine are marked as made in Sweden. Is it the American market only that is affected? I know there is a trademark issue with Silva in America: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silva_compass

I have a silva 54 that I bought from the US, it's definitely a Swedish made Silva, but is branded Brunton.

I recently bought a Ranger 27 and it is Swedish made, but I see that model is now replaced by the Ranger SL (looks identical) and I wondered where that is made.

Anyone heard anything on this, or bought a Silva recently?

 

[JonathanD]

None of mine are China made. But even if they are, I wouldn't worry about quality, China produce some amazing quality items. They just get a bad press from all the knock offs and cheap quality stuff that is also made over there.

 

[udamiano]

Ive got a model 99, and just checked and Swedish made, Like JD said China does some really high quality stuff, but we only tend to hear about the dodgy Rip-offs, so we assume its all bad.

 

[santaman2000]

I haven't bought a new Silva in quite a while but have had at least 2 in the past (still have one of them) that were older. As you say with the older ones the reputation was excellent. Mine certainly were. As for their rep now, I've only read some of the threads and don't have any first hand knowledge, either of the US marketed ones or European marketed ones so I cain't really make any rcomendations regarding them.

However if as you say a compass is one area where you're willing to spend extra, then these military compasses might suit you:

www.cammenga.com

Their reputation is definitely still solid. The normal one is luminous for night use but it's luminosity depends on solar energy exciting the chemical bits and it will quickly darken after a short time. The more expensive Tritium one is self luminous and normally remains so for 10 years or more. If you don't plan extensive night hikes either should do just fine. I have one of each and love them both. They are both a bit heavier that a Silva/Brunton type but the gain is that they are virtually indestructible.

 

[JonathanD]

Just checked my newest Expedition and it is still made in Sweden. Had a Ranger sent direct from Silva not long ago too as my old one had bubbles. That too is Made in Sweden. I know Recta is the name for Silva in the US (as the US have already got a company called Silva registered so Silva changed use teh Recat banner), maybe they are made differently. The designs are slightly, if only subtely different.

 

[rik_uk3]

Quality of Chinese goods was talked about on another forum. The bottom line is that the Chinese will make anything according to the remit of the company ordering goods. If Silva set high standards your compass will be fine, if the compass is crap it will be down to Silva cutting corners and not the Chinese who made them.

 

[santaman2000]

rik, one of the problems with Chinese goods here (not compasses but other items) was the ingredients. Several Chinese made childrens' toys were being painted with toxic lead based paints. Yes the company writing the specs should have specified that that wasn't acceptable but since such paints have been banned here for decades it never occurred to them. And likewise the Chinese companies should have made it a point to be familiar with the regulations of the consuming country.

Agreed that if they fully understand what is expected, they are quite able to make a quality product.

 

[ged]

With most things that were once made more locally but are now made in China I think you need to wait and see or take a risk. Most of the Chinese made things that I've bought have been low cost items of a few pounds with which I'm perfectly happy, and I would even still be reasonably happy with them if they fell to pieces/broke/stopped working/caught fire and exploded tomorrow morning.

At over a hundred quid I took a risk on an Optimus Hiker+ and it was rubbish so I sent it back. It was the first Optimus I've had that had any problems, my wife and I have several others, all made years (sometimes decades) before they moved manufacturing to China, and they've all been bullet proof. But I never even managed to boil a kettle on the Chinese made one and as far as I'm concerned unless I come across another old one in a charity shop or something I now have all the Optimus products that I'll ever buy.

It seems to me that the bean counters have a lot to answer for. They move into a successful company with great products and get some clueless consultant to tell them what they want to hear -- that they can save a lot of costs by firing everybody and farming out the manufacturing to China. The consultant hands in his report and does a bunk with his fee. The beanies ignore the pleas of the design, engineering, quality and production departments not to mention alll the other workers that they're going to fire, who all tell them how it will be. Well they would say that, wouldn't they? And so begins the adventure. It's hard enough to design, manufacture and support a quality product when the factory is downstairs, never mind when it's on the other side of the planet.

You can see it all going into reverse now with the call centres. Companies are starting to realize that customers like to speak to someone who they can understand. So it will be with Chinese manufacturing, when they get their own experiences of inflation, currency speculation and other economic turmoil. It's happening already, and thesedays everything happens so much faster because of the speed of the communications that we enjoy now.

Oh, gosh, I didn't mean to go off on one like that. Sorry. :blush:

 

[Lasse]

Obviously the company selling the product is the one who has to be sure the products meet the regulations of the country in which it wants to sell those products...
When you design a product, you also choose which ingredients are involved. If you don't, you're just a crappy company. It's completely your responsibility, unless a factory didn't follow your instructions.

I have the idea that most China bashing, and linking 'made in America', 'made in the UK' or any other 'made in' stamp to good quality is often from a protectionist mindset. Or the 'we do it better than anyone else' idea.
I heard the UK originally wanted 'made in' stamps on products to boycott less expensive German made products, trying to spread the idea that German made products had to be of inferior quality. Guess what the 'made in Germany' stamp is now associated with? Of course, saying 'made in Germany' is a quality guarantee is just as much rubbish.

Less transport, local jobs, fair working conditions, strict environmental regulations, ... might still be good reasons to buy local made though. (not just locally designed!)

 

[wizard]

Here is th story on the Silva compasses in the US being made in China, or anywhere else. Many years ago the Silva branch in the US was bought by the Johnson Products company, they make floor wax among other things. Johnson decided for some reason to get into the outdoor product market by buying established companies, one was Camp Trails, which back in the '60's and '70's made some high quality backpacks in the USA. That company was about 2 blocks from where I worked at the time and like all things, once the Johnson company bought them, they were doomed. Layed off most people and began to have the packs made elsewhere, cheap labor countries. Camp Trails eventually folded because of poor quality and poor marketing. Eureka tents were also acquired by Johnson and still survive today.
Silva, due to a stellar reputation as being one of the finest recreational compasses in the world has carried on with the Silva name. Originally the US compasses were the same as the Swedish ones and made in Sweden. Someone apparently figured out that since they owned the name in the US that they could have compasses made much cheaper and continue to use the Silva name and reputation to sell compasses at a higher profit margin by having them made somewhere with low labor costs.
So, today there are still many people in the USA that are aware of the Silva reputation for quality and recommend Silva compasses. Although the Silva they get in the US is a cheap knock off basically. Sad, really. I am not sure what year the company in the US started using non-Swedish compasses but it was sometime after the mid-'80's. I do remember selling genuine Swedish Silvas that came from Johnson as late as 1984. So the Silva reputation has lived on in the US but the compasses are not even close to a real Swedish Silva.
The company in the US that sells the same compasses as the Swedish Silva is Brunton. Brunton has some of their own compasses and they carry a large number of the Swedish Silva models labeled as Brunton.
I spend a little time on a US bushcraft forum and it is hard to make them believe that whole story and shop wisely for a compass. Seems that many that frequent that forum prefer the US military compass, which is an ok compass but weighs as much as a Land Rover and is not as useful as a baseplate compass.
Here are some links, to Silva USA, Silva Sweden and Brunton USA, you can clearly see the differences. Bottom line, if you are anywhere in the world and buy a Silva compass, you get a quality one, made in Sweden. Except in the USA, you get one made wherever they can be made cheaply! Cheers

http://store.bruntonoutdoor.com/navigation/
http://www.silvacompass.com/
http://silva.se/

 

[JonathanD]

Cheers wizard. I knew Silva traded under a different name for some reason over in the US. Now I know the full story, and it explains the problems reported on the US forum..

 

[Beardy]

Following what Rik and others have said, I think quality control is the biggie here. I've noticed it recently, the work gloves I was handed for my current job are made by Ejendals, a Swedish firm. The label says 'design and quality from Sweden, made in China', and they've held up pretty good so far. Likewise most stuff on offer in Ikea, 'design and quality from Sweden, made in X,Y,Z-land'. I don't know if it's just a Swedish thing, however. Let's face it, you could buy one category of product - a flashlight, a stove, a pair of boots or whatever - from firms of multiple nationalities, and it could all be manufactured in China or similar, maybe by the same factory!

Obviously there are notable exceptions that some people are willing to pay a premium for, and the practice of outsourcing jobs overseas isn't sustainable long term, once we figure out the wider costs, costs not on the pricetags that is, but for the moment Asia is the workshop of the world.

Are Recta really a rebranded Silva though? I was under the impression they were a separate, Swiss brand? Also disappointing to hear that Optimus's aren't all they used to be any longer... always did fancy myself a Nova...

 

[JonathanD]

Are Recta really a rebranded Silva though? I was under the impression they were a separate, Swiss brand? Also disappointing to hear that Optimus's aren't all they used to be any longer... always did fancy myself a Nova...

Could be Brunton. Don't know why I thought it was Recta.

 

[Doc]

The plot, which is already as thick as day old porridge, unfortunately thickens further. I knew that in America, anything labelled Silva was nothing to do with the Swedish firm Silva AB. To get a real Swedish Silva AB compass in the US, you bought a Brunton. They usually used the same model numbers, so my Brunton 54 is really a genuine Silva 54. Of course Brunton also sold non-Silva AB compasses like the Transit.

Brunton are selling a Chinese-made 'Brunton 15TDCL' here: http://www.amazon.com/Brunton-F-15T...=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1313083513&sr=1-1 which looks very similar (but not quite identical) to the Swedish Silva AB 15TDCL here http://www.outboundmaps.co.uk/product/220/silva-expedition-15-tdcl--hiking-all-weather-compass

So I it may be that Silva AB have not shifted product manufacture to China, but just that Brunton are sourcing compasses that look like, and are named after, the Silva AB models they used to sell.

All very confusing. I blame the lawyers.

Here is th story on the Silva compasses in the US being made in China, or anywhere else. Many years ago the Silva branch in the US was bought by the Johnson Products company, they make floor wax among other things. Johnson decided for some reason to get into the outdoor product market by buying established companies, one was Camp Trails, which back in the '60's and '70's made some high quality backpacks in the USA. That company was about 2 blocks from where I worked at the time and like all things, once the Johnson company bought them, they were doomed. Layed off most people and began to have the packs made elsewhere, cheap labor countries. Camp Trails eventually folded because of poor quality and poor marketing. Eureka tents were also acquired by Johnson and still survive today.
Silva, due to a stellar reputation as being one of the finest recreational compasses in the world has carried on with the Silva name. Originally the US compasses were the same as the Swedish ones and made in Sweden. Someone apparently figured out that since they owned the name in the US that they could have compasses made much cheaper and continue to use the Silva name and reputation to sell compasses at a higher profit margin by having them made somewhere with low labor costs.
So, today there are still many people in the USA that are aware of the Silva reputation for quality and recommend Silva compasses. Although the Silva they get in the US is a cheap knock off basically. Sad, really. I am not sure what year the company in the US started using non-Swedish compasses but it was sometime after the mid-'80's. I do remember selling genuine Swedish Silvas that came from Johnson as late as 1984. So the Silva reputation has lived on in the US but the compasses are not even close to a real Swedish Silva.
The company in the US that sells the same compasses as the Swedish Silva is Brunton. Brunton has some of their own compasses and they carry a large number of the Swedish Silva models labeled as Brunton.
I spend a little time on a US bushcraft forum and it is hard to make them believe that whole story and shop wisely for a compass. Seems that many that frequent that forum prefer the US military compass, which is an ok compass but weighs as much as a Land Rover and is not as useful as a baseplate compass.
Here are some links, to Silva USA, Silva Sweden and Brunton USA, you can clearly see the differences. Bottom line, if you are anywhere in the world and buy a Silva compass, you get a quality one, made in Sweden. Except in the USA, you get one made wherever they can be made cheaply! Cheers

http://store.bruntonoutdoor.com/navigation/
http://www.silvacompass.com/
http://silva.se/

 

[santaman2000]

... Seems that many that frequent that forum prefer the US military compass, which is an ok compass but weighs as much as a Land Rover and is not as useful as a baseplate compass...

I agree they're heavier but far from obnoxiously so. As to whether the military compasses are as useful as a baseplate (orienteering) compass; well, that's really more of a learning curve than a physical capabilities gap. Either can be just as useful once you learn how to use them; or useless if you don't. In reality the only advantage of an orienteering (baseplate) compass is when used to take a reading directly from a map. This was even the opinion of Bjorn Kjellstrom, the man who invented it and founded the Silva company.

This begs a question though. Why are you getting and/or carrying a compass? If you genuinely NEED it for vital navigation then not only should you get whatever type (after much research) will best fit your purpose, but you should also get the best instruction you can.

If on the other hand, said navigation is as much a hobby as any other reason for being out and about; you might get either type (or still some third type) and be just as happy. Unless of course, you intend to join an orienteering club or other navigational club, in which case it would probably be better to consult them and see what they are using.

 

[wizard]

I don't disagree Santaman. I spent 20 year as an 18B and used the USGI compass through the SFQC and for numerous years after. Many people in our field purchased their own baseplate compasses and used them as both compass and protractor, with the added benefit of lighter weight. The one most commonly missed feature though was the tritium markings, which were very legible at night. To my taste the USGI compass is too heavy and offers no real advantage over a good baseplate model.
The obvious advantage to a person in the miltary is issued vs. having to purchase. As far as using one, well today I am right where I thought I was, so I must have learned some navigation throughout the years. I can even function with either flavor compass, I just prefer one that is lighter and acts as a protractor as well. I looked for my Cammanega compass so i could weigh both for a real comparison but it seems to have gotten lost, odd as that sounds.

 

[ged]

... Also disappointing to hear that Optimus's aren't all they used to be any longer... always did fancy myself a Nova...

The Chinese made Nova was the subject of a product recall not so long ago.

You can still pick up the originals, you may even see them here on BCUK sometimes. As far as I know I bought the last one, last year. My wife wanted to borrow hers back. She's still got it in France.

 

[santaman2000]

Yeah wizard, I like the baseplates too. But I do use a map a great deal so that advantage is definitely noted. Also it was the first type I ever used as a Boy Scout (don't ask how long ago) so it's the one I'm best with.

I suppose that may be partially why I like the military type so much now. It's just a little newer, therefore more exciting. That and they (the Cammenga brand) are still from a known source with a known quality (at least for now)

 

[wizard]

Santaman, I found my Cammenaga and it is lighter than I remember it being. It weighs 5.5 ounces and my Suunto (also a known source) weighs in at a tad less than 2.5 ounces. I was surprised also that the USGI compass still glows fairly well even though it is dated 1994. I retired from the military in '97, so the compass has held up well. I don't hate it, I just prefer the baseplate compasses. The Suunto is a global needle model and you can adjust the declination offset, which is about 11 degrees out west here. I learned to use a baseplate as a Scout also, when I joined the army I was thrilled with the GI compass but after awhile went back to the convenience of a baseplate because it was also my protractor. I kept the military one for sentimental reasons just like the LBV that I'll never wear again.

What you say about a known source is certainly important and Cammenaga is a known source with a genuine quality compass. I was surprised to learn in this thread that the Brunton's sold in the US are now possibly made in China too. I am not against Chinese made goods I just prefer, in the case of a compass, one from the original makers, like Silva, Sweden or Suunto, Finland or Cammenega, USA. There are plenty of copies of the USGI compass around too. Seems like so many items that were once from a particular source are now made elsewhere. I recall companies like TNF and Kelty that made high-qual products in the US and now outsource all their gear. They do QC the stuff and all but it is the labor cost they seek to reduce. I guess we are fortunate to have choices and can still afford gear, often because some company chooses to have their product made in a low cost of labor country.

Last I knew though, the Silva that can be purchsed in the UK, from a UK supplier is still a Silva made in Sweden. I know RM carries them on his site. The US is the only country with a compass branded Silva that is not a true Silva for the legal reasons that went with the name sale back in the '80's.
Cheers!

 

[Doc]

Very interesting discussion on military compasses. The British Army use (or used, when I was a OTC soldier 86-92) the Francis Barker sighting compass which I bet is heavier than the trusty Cammenga. They also use tritium illuminated Silva type 4s.

Here in the UK mountain leader courses recommend the Silva type 4. The type 54 uses the type 4 baseplate, but offers half degree accuracy using the raised sighting device. I think it gives the best of both worlds, but the raised sighting capsule makes it vulnerable to crush damage.

The type 15 Ranger has the mirror that folds over the capsule. So you have sighting accuracy (but not quite as good as the type 54), plus protection for the capsule, plus a mirror for signalling or removing ocular foreign bodies.

Or you could buy a Suunto or Recta!