Silva compasses made in China?

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Doc

Need to contact Admin...
Nov 29, 2003
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Perthshire
Just to add to the 'outsourcing to China' issue - at the weekend a trader showed me a Buck folding knife. Now, to a Brit like me, Buck is as American as Daisy Duke, the Statue of Liberty and that superhero with the shield.

The ricasso was stamped 'CHINA'.
 

Paul_B

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 14, 2008
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Cumbria
Nationality of manufacture isn't an issue if the product works and the quality is there. The first is obvious necessity for things like compasses. At the end of the day if the compass you use works, as in points reliably to the north and functions as required it is good no matter where it comes from.

As far as writing off stuff made in China because some toys had lead in the paint well that is ridiculous. With brands where the manufacturer isn't the one making the goods it is still the responsibility of the brand to ensure manufacturing meets the codes and regulations of the destination country not the manufacturer. It is the brand in USA or UK or wherever who stands the cost and implications of goods that they have not ensured the quality of. They design and specify everything about THEIR products. If they don't fully specify it and lead based paint is used because that is not banned in China then it is not the manufacturer's fault. It is not good and highly expensive and embarrassing to the toy brand but their fault. As far as dodgy toys reaching the market or knock-offs then that might be China now but it was Taiwan, Korea, India and various other places before and probably still.

It is also the case that the majority of big brands who get their products made in China have quality systems capable of ensuring their products. They also work with the highly respected Chinese manufacturers. You think Specialised or other well established bike brands are dodgy because they or part of them are made in China? In my business some very large and established companies regularly use Chinese companies and joint ventures. GE, Siemens, etc. If China is such a dodgy manufacturing country then why do they have joint ventures and use Chinese companies for their systems? The company I work for buy a lot of our products from Chinese companies. It is cheaper and better quality and more reliable in supply and price than the equivalent from European countries.

In my experience the majority of prejudice (and it is prejudice) against products made in China is all down to the tiny minority of dodgy stuff that gets blown up out of all proportion by the media. Yes! Dangerous toys from China being sold as well known brands on the market stall or the odd case of a product recall for lead paint (error due to different environmental regulations and prohibited materials not picked up in the western brand's quality systems) is bad but not representative. As far as the Silva compasses in the USA being rubbish (which is kind of what comes across) then that is down to the parent company specifying it as that. If you earn the same money whether you make a quality product for a brand or a dodgy one and you make a loss with the quality product and a profit with the dodgy one then if the brand specifies the dodgy product you aren't going to go against it no matter where you are.

Sorry for the rant but I think we need to accept that the quality of products has little to do with country of manufacture but to do with the specifications, design and quality control. YOU as the end user need to assess anything you buy as to if the quality is to YOUR satisfaction. That should be done on the product not the country of manufacture. An example of that is the British made cars in the 70s and 80s under the "Made in Britain" days. They were totally carp but the Japanese and German cars (even the Damn French cars - sorry to any French on here) were better. Heck cars went out with cans in door panels, buttys in other cavities and numerous other cases of slack manufacturing. Correct me if I'm wrong but American cars at one time had similar problems. I've seen documentaries on Motor City's downturn and how there was aggression towards Japanese cars about how bad they were yet at the time American made cars were coming off the line unfinished. They had cars going out to dealer half finished. At the same time the Japanese were making cars faster, more efficiently, better quality and better performing at the time. Things are not quite like that now of course but it is an example of how competition from other countries drag domestic manufacturers to up their game. We can still do it but so can they.

Sorry for my rant, I just feel strongly that quality does not have a regional correlation even if it suits you to think so.
 

Paul_B

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 14, 2008
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Someone mentioned Ikea but I believe that Latvia is a big furniture manufacturing country and to some extent so is Italy. I don't know if Latvian companies make for Ikea but I wouldn't be surprised if they do buy outside of Sweden. Globalisation is what its about IIRC.
 

Doc

Need to contact Admin...
Nov 29, 2003
2,109
10
Perthshire
I have no doubt that the best Chinese manufacturing is very good indeed. Chinese optics can be very good - I have an excellent Chinese microscope.

I think a concern is that when manufacturing is outsourced, eg to China, it takes some time to 'get it right'. I accept that may be more the fault of the Western commisioning company rather than the Chinese supplier. Nevertheless, we have seen it with Optimus, and also with Swanndri when they outsourced to China. And a compass is a 'safety-of-life' piece of equipment that could kill you if it doesn't perform as specified.

Chinese motorbikes are interesting. They cost about 1/6 to 1/2 of the Japanese bikes they are based on. There are any horror stories on the internet, but it is also clear they are gradually getting better and better.

I have a Chinese made ham radio transceiver (Wouxun) and the build quality is pretty much on a par with the Japanese stuff that is 3x the price.
 

Paul_B

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 14, 2008
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Cumbria
That is why you need to use something called judgement as to whether something is right and good. The more critical something is the more you have to be critical in your choices. Afterall it your bottom on the line potentially.

I am convinced that the western companies who outsource to China are at fault if their products aren't right. It takes time to tool up for a new process line. That tooling up is critical and it defines the quality of the product. IF the western brand is not on thee ball at that stage you will inevitably get problems. That would happen if the goods were starting to be made in China, India, America and UK.

My company moved to a new site and set up a new manufacturing line(s). It was a hugely complex thing despite the product being fairly lo-tech. I know a little of how hard it is to get the quality right in the early runs. It is a trial and error process for a while. It is still down to the brand to ensure all goods are to a marketable state not the manufacturer. The manufacturer might not get paid for faulty goods so they also have an incentive but it is not their technology, they are just metalbashers or plastics producers or whatever. They work to the western brands' technology. Quite often the Western brand might even export to China the equipment to make their own products too. If not machines then the tooling at least.

Personally I would rate a western brand product designed in thee west but made in China over the Chinese product designed and made in China. Not because the Chinese are less able but because they are playing catch up. They are doing this very fast but they are still learning and increasing their tech level. It is like how the industrial revolution started in the UK but spread out. As more of that tech leached overseas we as a nation innovated and increased our tech. This is a circular process in that everytime a foreign country gains our tech we develop more and move up the tech level. We however have since the days of the industrial revolution have decreased our capability to do this with a tail off of large manufacturing industries in the last half of last century.
 

wizard

Nomad
Jan 13, 2006
472
2
77
USA
I totally agree about country of origin being unimportant. There are certain exceptions though. Mainly counterfeit items and there are a lot of blatant counterfeit items, everything from software and music CD's to clothing. There are also copied products that may or may not function as desired. I think of Maxpedition backpacks and some of the Chinese copies. The originals are better, more costly but better. I am not a Maxpedition owner so for all I know their items may be produced in China and that is fine as long as the QC goes with the production. That is the case with TNF and others, they have things manufactured in China but oversee the production and quality of the goods, that is also fine with me.

Where a lot of perception is formed is with the many non-quality items being sold all over the world that have been made in China. There are also a lot of people that feel they steal jobs from their countrymen by having goods produced overseas. Add to this the people that believe that goods produced in many countries are being made by nearly forced labor that have to work for very limited wages. So, the whole "Made In xxxxxx" debate will continue.

I have a few Spyderco knives made in China that are excellent quality and I have no qualm about using them. That in itself does not make me believe all items from there are acceptable, that is not prejudice, it is careful selection. I think as a rule, when an item formerly made in Europe changes and begins being made in China, one must examine that item and see if the quality is still there. Just makes sense to me. That is not meant to imply Chinese are not capable craftsman.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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...I think as a rule, when an item formerly made in Europe changes and begins being made in China, one must examine that item and see if the quality is still there. Just makes sense to me. That is not meant to imply Chinese are not capable craftsman.

Agreed. whether Chinese manufactures have the skill and capabilities is not in question. What is obvious is that they do not have an established reputation that consumers trust as of yet. Particularly when compared to the long held reputations of companies such as Optimus and Silva. It will take time for the reputation to be built (even as the older European and American companies reputations ebb) Whether that is deserved or not is irrelevant. That's the way commerce works. Whether the fault for sub-par goods (compasses or toys or whatever) lies with the contracting company in the West or the manufacturing company in China, is irrelevant. A badly made Chinese product remains remains a badly made product regardless of whose fault it is. That does and will hinder reputation building.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
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Florida
In my experience the majority of prejudice (and it is prejudice) against products made in China is all down to the tiny minority of dodgy stuff that gets blown up out of all proportion by the media. Yes! Dangerous toys from China being sold as well known brands on the market stall or the odd case of a product recall...

I used the toys as a single example. Unfortunately that's only one of an ongoing list. Large scale use of Chinese drywall rebuilding after Katrine has resulted in widespread illness claims and almost universal teardown of homes and buildings that were built with it. Within China the poisoning of domestic baby formula. Something seems to come up almost every other year.

I don't blame this on lack of ability but rather it is largely as you said due to China having to play catch up. This forces them to sometimes do things faster than safety allows.

BTW I believe wizards post about the state of Silva compasses in America put more blame on Johnson Outdoor Products (the American company) than the Chinese manufactures. A case of the original Silva in Sweden having an excellent reputation but the new company that owns the Silva name in America lowering standards and trying to ride on the reputation of the original manufacturer.
 
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walker

Full Member
Oct 27, 2006
680
132
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devon
i was in cotswold the other day looking at silva compasses and indeed its sad to say they are now made in china
 

Laurentius

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 13, 2009
2,433
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Knowhere
Once upon a time, before the EU was a thing, you used to get cheap products branded "Empire made" which as often as not meant made in Hong Kong (which for all that it was once part of Empire is China) does anything really change?
 

Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
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Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
So your Brunton improved with age, just like us and red wine!

I guess modern compasses do not need an expantion bubble as the seals are made to take the thermal movement of the liquid.

It was Silva that invented the liquid dampened compass btw.
 

Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
12,330
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Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
Brunton seems to have some very close connectiond to Silva.

I checked them out, nice compasses!

To the original question - Silva have factories in several countries, I guess the cheapest ones are made in PRC.
 

Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
9,959
2,666
McBride, BC
I have my original (1964) Recta Prospector (steel case) which is now 50% bubble. That one got me out of the forest twice.

About 1995 or so, Field & Stream magazine put the Brunton 8099 as the top in their annual "Best of the Best" gear listing.
There's no more brutal outdoor, field testing of kit than the F&S list. So I bought it. Approx $100.00
That one got me down and out of a sudden mountain snowstorm with less than 50 yd visibility.
But, it's grown a bubble over the years so I'll get another.

A really good compass is cheap insurance at just about any price.
 

Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
9,959
2,666
McBride, BC
The Brunton TruArc20 is a re-hash of the 8099 with several visible changes.

I don't need it to navigate. I need it for the rare occassions when I get disoriented.

Looks like the new Brunton will cost me about $50.00.
I'll check some recent F&S lists to see if anything else has popped up.
 

demographic

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 15, 2005
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It was claimed the bubble compensated for the thermal expansion of the liquid.


The bevel gear on a bevel drive circular saw just has a bit of rubber membrane to allow for thermal expansion in its gear oil, now if only rubber had been invented years ago Silva could have done the same.
I mean its not like it grows on trees or anything.

Oh, hang on a bit...
 

Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
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Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
The bevel gear on a bevel drive circular saw just has a bit of rubber membrane to allow for thermal expansion in its gear oil, now if only rubber had been invented years ago Silva could have done the same.
I mean its not like it grows on trees or anything.

Oh, hang on a bit...

Sounds like you need to speak to them and advice what they should have done those years ago..
remember, the actual construction/design was done in the 1930's. No doubt they used the tech. design for many decades.
If it works why change it?

They worked at +30C. They worked at -50C. At overpressure ( diving) and underpressure ( mountaineering)
A little bubble, if not designed to be there, did not influence the efficiency and accurancy of the compass.
 
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