sick hunters

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dogwood

Settler
Oct 16, 2008
501
0
San Francisco
Even hunting the biggest "trophy" deer doesn't really hurt the gene pool.

1. It's almost impossible to bag the biggest, smartest bucks. It's almost impossible to even see them.

This is simply not true. The assertion is wild on its face.

But there's this possibility: maybe you're not seeing them in New England, because hunters have specifically targeted them for their racks and you're running out of big bucks -- which is my point.

Come hunting with me out West and I'll show you plenty of big bucks, as long you promise not to take them and go for the average ones like I do.

I think some of our Texans might want to weigh in on this, but last time I was in West Texas -- where the deer are super plentiful -- I noted a marked reduction in size and robustness since the last time I hunted there a couple of decades a go. I suspect hunting for racks is making them visibly smaller.

2. Dominant bucks don't survive long anyway. Once they reach that stage, they wear themselves out fighting and breeding and don't make it through the subsequent winter. It's Mother Natures way of keeping the gene pool fresh.

I don't know how you arrive at this conclusion. Dominant bucks don't wear themselves out and die from fighting and breeding. Dominant bucks actually have a pretty nice life, relatively speaking, until someone decides to hunt them specifically for their rack. (Although I'm deeply amused by the notion of a buck f***ing himself to death...)

3. Trophy hunting gives economic value to game. Without economic value, habitat becomes strip malls and subdivisions.

Again, not correct. Hunting licenses in general contribute substantially to wildlife management, and general land management policies contribute mightily as well.

The specific economic activity associated with trophy hunting is a drop in the bucket by comparison and utterly unimportant from a wildlife management perspective.

Hunters -- and I repeat, I am a hunter -- who are focused on taking the biggest and the best damage the gene pool badly and there are plenty of examples. The small size of the American bison being one of the most visible.

If a hunter chooses on the basis of trophy value, they will inevitably harm the gene pool.

Hypothetical situation: You see a yearling spike buck and a huge 12-pointer at the same time. If you take the 12-pointer during the legal season, he's already impregnated lots of does and was likely to die before the next season anyway. If you take the young spike, no one will ever know what his genetic potential was, and he's probably never bred.

But your hypothetical is not the scenario I propose. I'm not talking about taking yearlings. I advocate taking thoroughly ordinary fully adult deer and specifically choosing NOT to take the biggest in the strongest in favor of going for the ordinary.
 

dogwood

Settler
Oct 16, 2008
501
0
San Francisco
Also want to agree with Oblio, ivory poaching is a completely different league.

Pete,

I don't think you're evaluating the situation completely: ivory poachers were *exactly* the same as trophy hunters. The only difference what they sold their trophy at the end.

The elephant example is right on the mark because it shows how a species changes as a result of human predation for specific traits of the prey.
 

Chinkapin

Settler
Jan 5, 2009
746
1
83
Kansas USA
Dogwood, No, I'm not objecting to original muzzle loaders either flintlock, or percussion lock or to their reproductions. What I'm objecting to are inline, shotgun primed, pellet loaded, sabot shooting, scoped, stainless steel, synthetic stocked, butt-ugly, guns that have no bearing whatsoever on "primitive" firearms. This was all caused, as far as I can tell by an "arms race" among black powder gun manufacturers to make more and more "innovations" each year.
 

Chinkapin

Settler
Jan 5, 2009
746
1
83
Kansas USA
Oblio13: I believe you are correct that rack size has increased, at least in some areas. But, I think it is well known that hunters have for years now been putting out feed and nutrients for the deer to eat with the full understanding that deer feed in such a manner are going to be very healthy and as a consequence have a larger rack. Not to mention that the feeder/hunter knows right where to look for his next "trophy." Keep killing off the largest and the best, and no amount of feed in the world will make up for the genetic deficiency. I'm also confident that the biologist working for the various fish and game departments know and understand this but since hunting licenses (bought by hunters) greatly fund each states fish and game departments they are not going to make much of a fuss over it and irritate their benefactors.
 

trail2

Nomad
Nov 20, 2008
268
0
Canton S.Dakota (Ex pat)
Got to agree with you there Chinkapin! Knight Industries has a lot to answer for.
That said my every day rifle is a Parker Hale .308. But my all time favourite is my .62 cal flintlock.
As to trophy hunting, I don't. I shoot 6 deer a year.(I don't buy meat from the store) My criteria is mature large bodied does. Cant eat horns! With a 20:1 doe to buck ratio here that makes sense anyway. But some land owners have a 4 point rule.You can't shoot a buck with less than 4 points on one side. It's their land and they charge a trespass fee (hefty) If you don't like it hunt someplace else.
Wheres this ramble going? I would rather have 6 does in the freezer I got on free public land than one 180 class buck that cost $5000. So if you want to spend the money and that trips your trigger (sorry) then go for it. But I'm not paying anyone to shoot something excessively large or oddball.
Rant over.
Jon R.
 

dogwood

Settler
Oct 16, 2008
501
0
San Francisco
Got to agree with you there Chinkapin! Knight Industries has a lot to answer for.
That said my every day rifle is a Parker Hale .308. But my all time favourite is my .62 cal flintlock.
As to trophy hunting, I don't. I shoot 6 deer a year.(I don't buy meat from the store) My criteria is mature large bodied does. Cant eat horns! With a 20:1 doe to buck ratio here that makes sense anyway. But some land owners have a 4 point rule.You can't shoot a buck with less than 4 points on one side. It's their land and they charge a trespass fee (hefty) If you don't like it hunt someplace else.
Wheres this ramble going? I would rather have 6 does in the freezer I got on free public land than one 180 class buck that cost $5000. So if you want to spend the money and that trips your trigger (sorry) then go for it. But I'm not paying anyone to shoot something excessively large or oddball.
Rant over.
Jon R.

Jon,

That was no rant: the way you hunt is way it should be done, in my mind. If we all did it that way, you'd see a big, positive change in the population inside of 15 years.
 

dogwood

Settler
Oct 16, 2008
501
0
San Francisco
Chinkapin, I agree with you on the inlines and whatnot -- besides, they're aesthetically unpleasing too boot. When it comes to muzzleloadersgive me that old time religion....
 

Draven

Native
Jul 8, 2006
1,530
6
34
Scotland
Pete,

I don't think you're evaluating the situation completely: ivory poachers were *exactly* the same as trophy hunters. The only difference what they sold their trophy at the end.

The elephant example is right on the mark because it shows how a species changes as a result of human predation for specific traits of the prey.

I respectfully disagree :p Ivory poaching can be trophy hunting, but it's not necessarily. Ivory is used for other things as well - similar to how people don't just hunt deer for trophies. Either way, ivory poaching is invariably worse than your average hunting of a trophy buck - elephants are more scarce and often the only part that is taken is the tusks. I know that a lot of trophy hunters are often interested primarily in the rack but I don't see the rest going to waste, that's just generally forgotten by critics... Could be wrong, of course.

It just seems to be that ivory poaching is more of a sell-your-soul situation than trophy hunting deer, and as such the moral comparison is a bit like comparing yelling at someone to beating them with a golf club. You're right though that it is a good example of humans interfering in natural selection and the consequences thereof.

Pete
 

dogwood

Settler
Oct 16, 2008
501
0
San Francisco
Pete, I think your points are well taken on the issue of the degree when it comes to ivory poaching vs. average trophy hunting. And I don't dispute that ivory poaching is selling your soul -- there's a special place in hell for those people...

I think we're in complete agreement on the negative impact consistent and intense hunting will have on a species if a specific physical trait is targeted. :)
 

IJ55

Forager
Mar 29, 2009
148
0
UK
Pete, I think your points are well taken on the issue of the degree when it comes to ivory poaching vs. average trophy hunting. And I don't dispute that ivory poaching is selling your soul -- there's a special place in hell for those people...

Oh dear. A special place in Hell for poachers? oh deary me. Religion used as an anti poacher rant? As for Trophy hunters bagging big bucks being the same as Poachers, well, I am sorry but it seems your irrationality is as expansive as your religious fever.

Poachers are bad, but who made you 'God'?

I'm also suprised with that 'God' bit you hunt any way - Think of all those poor plants that have to die so your lead for your bullets can be dug up. See where that could go? a long slippery slope ahead.
 

Draven

Native
Jul 8, 2006
1,530
6
34
Scotland
Pete, I think your points are well taken on the issue of the degree when it comes to ivory poaching vs. average trophy hunting. And I don't dispute that ivory poaching is selling your soul -- there's a special place in hell for those people...

I think we're in complete agreement on the negative impact consistent and intense hunting will have on a species if a specific physical trait is targeted. :)
I think that you're right and we are in agreement, blame the headache I've had since yesterday morning for the nitpicking :eek:

IJ55 - Honestly, you'd think he was suggesting writing to the pope to ask his opinion. Certain religious terms have leeched into common usage - God damn it, Christ Almighty, Hell. He's hardly using religion for an anti-poacher rant, that's a horrific overstatement that just makes it seem as though you're itching for an argument for whatever reason. Religious fever... Christ almighty! Even if religion is part of the reasoning for his views, so what? They're his views, religion has not been brought into this thread and it's therefore nonsensical to assume someone's beliefs and then bash them for it.

Pete
 

Chinkapin

Settler
Jan 5, 2009
746
1
83
Kansas USA
As an aside that refers back to an earlier comment I made about elephants getting smaller tusks, I would like to point out that I checked on the largest tusks ever taken. Couldn't find out who took them but they were taken in the 1800s -- which confirms what I said. Interestingly enough they were said to belong to the monarchy and to be in the Victoria and Albert Museum. Interestingly, I did a search online at the museum website and they showed some carved ivory that was in their holdings but no mention of these tusks.

I also searched for the largest elephant ever killed, and it was killed in 1954, further confirming what I and others i.e. Dogwood said about the degradation of the gene pool due to trophy hunting. I would be almost positive that there were larger elephants killed in the 1800s by hunters who were interested in trophy ivory but not interested (or had no way) to measure the animal and get it certified by some big game organization.
 

nickg

Settler
May 4, 2005
890
5
69
Chatham
I may be a little off side here - but my understanding of the motivation of ivory poachers etc is purely survival - they get very llittle for the results of their efforts and die if they are caught, the profits are small and vital to keep their families fed & healthy - that is the main problem as far as stopping the trade at source. Trophy hunters are usually wealthy (comparatively) and comfortable enough to afford expensive (comparitively) leisure time. To be able to choose a particular animal for its prey is a luxury that most 'survival' hunters cannot afford.
Poaching is a shame, but I personally find it easier to understand and reconcile than trophy hunting (which I confess I do not really understand at all!)
Of course it would be different if the trophy hunters had to do it with just a knife, or maybe two sticks tied to thier head, now THAT would be HUNTING.

Cheers
Nick
 

Rob Tangtent

Tenderfoot
Feb 20, 2009
81
0
29
Warwickshire
[rant]

Have you ever eaten fast food? If so, did you ask how the meat and poultry were reared?

Do you ever eat mayo? Where did the eggs come from?

Do you eat bread? Or vegetables? How many insecticides were used in their production? How many rabbits were exterminated for trying to eat the lettuce that you eat? How many slugs and snails?

All those deaths were caused by your actions. Vastly more than one white deer.

Why not look into all the deaths that you own action and inaction have caused?

I have heard so many bleeding heart liberals bleat about hunting without considering the effects of their own actions. Many a supercilious housewife (and it is mostly women firecrest ) have a warm fuzzy moment about their free range chicken without looking into whats in their mayo, or soap, or where their vegetables come from.

I have heard silly little vegetarians twitter on about how they are not responsible for animal death. Oh sure:rolleyes: monoculture arable farming isn't responsible for animal death?

Its not responsibe for animal consumption. It is responsible for vast amounts of virtualy sterile land and hence animal death. Far more so than grazing land is. Grazing land is kept to raise meat.

Every decision every person makes results in huge impacts on the animal population of this planet. Hunting is a tiny, tiny amount of all animal deaths. What people shove in their mouth every day, how they live, what they buy etc. has an effect mnay orders of magnitude higher.

If you haven't checked every bar of soap you buy for the presence of palm oil, ever buy a Macfactory, eat in a pub or restaurant without knowing the provenance of food, stop bleating about one little cuddly wuddly fluffy ickle bamby and actually learn to do something about all the animals YOU are killing


[/rant]

Red
i agree with that. i worded that last bit wrong... i ment that my personal opinion is Hunting is wrong unless you can use as much resources as possiable ,sinew chord, meat, antler for knife handle- flint knapping- making a whistle, deerhide for a rug or turning into other useful items.
i agree with what you said and there is a differnce between killing and hunting...
my porblem is with someone killing something just for either the sake of it (chavs stamping on insects) or just to show off to your friends (trophy hunting)
i disagree with trophy hunting but thats just my opinion, many would disagree. but thats fine
so dont get me wrong that hunting is bad, i just think you have to fully justify killing that animal.
i (like most "ominvores") eat meat probably everyday. I think it is fair to eat meat because that is the way the world has worked since it was created. now obviousely some of the pigs "carcass" is going to be left for waste. now i have no idea how this could be fixed because i dont think that people will start buying pigs snouts and A--holes to fry up in a sunday breakfast. it just isnt going to happen?
My problem is if you are going to take an animal from its natural habitat you should do your best to respect this animal.
thats just my opinion
 

Draven

Native
Jul 8, 2006
1,530
6
34
Scotland
i dont think that people will start buying pigs snouts and A--holes to fry up in a sunday breakfast.

Whadaya think the original "sausage socks" were made from? ;)

I've also heard of intestines being used for covering knife and sword handles - wash, soak, stretch over the wood, dye, let dry and oil. Apparantly it works good for a leather-like but seamless handle wrap...

Pete

PS: My point is that it is possible to use just about every part of an animal, even if it's not practical!
 
Nov 29, 2004
7,808
22
Scotland
i dont think that people will start buying pigs snouts and A--holes to fry up in a sunday breakfast.

My butcher always has a tray of Pig snouts out and does a roaring trade in them and I'm fairly certain that he'd happily supply a paper bag of a-holes for the cat if I asked :D
 

Rob Tangtent

Tenderfoot
Feb 20, 2009
81
0
29
Warwickshire
Whadaya think the original "sausage socks" were made from? ;)

I've also heard of intestines being used for covering knife and sword handles - wash, soak, stretch over the wood, dye, let dry and oil. Apparantly it works good for a leather-like but seamless handle wrap...

Pete

PS: My point is that it is possible to use just about every part of an animal, even if it's not practical!

yeh i watched a program where a guy was given a pig and he had to cook and eat every ediable bit. just out of interest cos i have no idea... could you eat everyeveryevery bit
like all of the intestines. like surely something in that pigs stomach must be poisonouse or something?
its actually pretty gross what they put in some cheapo sausages.
intestines are also the things that covers most sausages right?
like what keeps all the meat from going everywhere
so pigs are actually pretty easy to eat in all
crackling
meat
sausage casing
sausage socks
 

Draven

Native
Jul 8, 2006
1,530
6
34
Scotland
Nowadays most sausages probably have synthetic casings, but traditionally intestines were used. Still not too hard to find haggis in a sheep stomach IIRC.

I doubt you could eat every part of any animal, simpler organisms like mussels excluded. Intestines, I highly doubt are "good eating" - they're used to hold other things, and they are edible as a bonus. Therein lies the problem with some other internal organs, you'll find little/no nutritional value, probably an unpleasant texture as well. I'm not sure whether there'd be a problem eating something like the pancreas, though I wouldn't be the one to try it, and I wouldn't care to try spleen either. Best eating is the meat, liver, kidneys, heart and lungs, though I've heard good things about brains, eyeballs and the 'rocky mountain oysters' - none of which I care to try!

Fat also has its uses of course!

Pete
 

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