Sharpening with Waterstones

[Dugs]

Hi

I've just got a couple of questions about waterstones.

What grit would you sharpen to for different tools?
-Your standard workhorse Bushcraft knife?
-Skinning Knife
-Forest Axe?
-Carving Tools?
-A Kitchen Knife?

How would you progress through the grits? What would you start at etc?

Thanks in advance

 

[dnarcher]

Different peoples stone are slightly differetly graded.
I would recomend something like a powerfile to change grinds or remove any big chips.
Then a quick go over with a 400 stone to set your angles and grinds.
Then a 1000 -this is good enough for most uses.
4000 gives a very smooth edge.
Strop with starkie blue gives a polished edge.
I think my chosera 800 is finer than my norton 1000.
5 minute run over the 1000 stone keeps everything sharp.
Smooth steel also polishes up the edges - i do mean completely smooth, as in polished.
Perhaps more important is grind angles -my kitchen knifes are about 15 degrees a side, bushcraft knife just under 25, axe about 30.

 

[scarfell]

I use a ~600 diamond stone for my weekly sharpen, then 1000 and 4000 whetstones, does a good job on my carbon and high carbon stainless, then strop with leather

I only use the 1000/4000 when i'm out, but have a couple of small lower grit stones to deal with any issues the whetstones cant

 

[nephilim]

I have a 400 for getting the shape and any chips or nicks out.

1000 to refine it.

2000 to smooth it.

6000 to polish it.

Starky blue on a strop if I feel it needs it. For out and about I carry a lansky puck which is 1000/2000

 

[MartiniDave]

Pop onto you-tube and search for Mors Kochanski & Sharpening - all will be explained!

 

[mrcharly]

I use a 250 for kitchen knives and don't bother going smaller - just go straight to a strop. The edge lasts well and cuts very well.

The 250 is also good for reshaping grinds. Just don't use a lot of pressure, it is really quick to wear away and can get hollowed out fast.

Carving tools don't go near the 250 unless damaged, they get sharpened on 1000 or just stropped.

Axe? when I had a good axe it just got stropped to a polish. A polished axe chops best. Ditto for an adze.

 

[mr dazzler]

here we go again,
all you need do is decide on what is of higher importance....sharpening for its own sake....or using your tools with an edge matched to intended use. EG for an axe why fanny about putting a fine mirror polish edge when its going to get messed up in no time with grit and so forth, just do with a file, takes a few seconds and gives a very good working edge. If you are fastidious and want a very smooth fine polished knife finish on carved wood, with no white scars scratches or disturbed grain, then use a fine stone (not necessarily a water stone) and strop it frequently. My best working knife I made from a finnish blade about 6 years ago, I strop it all the time, do with a stone (norton shock horror) very rarely, maybe a half dozen times since it was made. Water stones are over hyped and over rated, far too delicate, too soft, wear unevenly too fast....but frozen, broken up and ground to paste they do make a good stropping compound

 

[Robson Valley]

Waterstones or sandpapers, the materials don't matter.

Two things matter:
1. Selection of bevel angles to have enough steel behind the edge to support it in service.
Depending on the tool, I use 12, 15, 20, 25, 28, 30 and 40 degrees, total included bevel angle.
My wood carving crooked knives at one end, my kitchen bone cleaver at the other.

2. Ability to do all of this freehand and to do any and all, week in and week out.
In my case, wood carving, to hone with repeated success every 30 - 60 minutes.
The learning is in the success with repeated technique.
Right down to painting the edges with black felt marker so I never guess at what's happening.

Waterstones work altogether rather well when used properly. But I can't work up a crooked knife nor a carver's adze.
So, learned all over again with sandpapers wrapped around various mandrels.

Same thing for strops. Leather rebounds as the edge passes by so I use no more than box card taped to a piece of polished granite counter top cutoff.
Scribble that with CrOx/AlOx. I have a really nice 2-sided leather strop. The waxy carrier in the honing compound softened the leather over the years = useless now.

For a damaged edge, I'd joint the edge on an oil stone ( I have 80/120/200) then work up through the grits on fine automotive finishing sand papers.
A bit of a light spark/crumpled edge? 600, 800, 1000, 1500 then hone on the strop.

So. One sheet each, 6 different grits, of sandpapers, maybe 1/3 sheet at a time in use. Box card from some brand of crisps, bar of honing compound.
Maybe, just maybe, as much as $15.00 cost.

Kitchen: Porsche suggests a 2K waterstone for total 20 degrees. I'll say 1K leaves just enough tooth for any veg.

 

[scarfell]

A random tip when buying whetstones, ask the supplier if they have any broken pieces, you only need a small extra piece, you use it to rub on the main stone to create a slurry both times i've bought stones i got an extra broken piece free with the order for this purpose

(i believe some of the more expensive stones have an extra stone included, from what i could tell from the Ray Mears sharpening vid; i had an old expensive one gifted initially, but my cheap stone does just as good a job @ <15£)

 

[mr dazzler]

Waterstones work altogether rather well when used properly. But I can't work up a crooked knife nor a carver's adze.
So, learned all over again with sandpapers wrapped around various mandrels.

You are the Canadian crook knife guy isnt it? I made a set of carving knives from canadian haida blades, still use them a lot, any excuse to get them out, and I find best maintenence method that works for me is to ocasionally use a small diamnod pen file, and a frequent stropping with a cone shaped leather strop with rouge and aluminium oxide metal polish on it. And do the flat backs now and again on a norton oil stone.
Am considering getting a kestrel texture adze, the original chatter tool....

 

[Robson Valley]

Yes, mr dazzler, I am one of many. Journey of exploration into the functions of the traditional wood carving tools of the Pacific Northwest.
Nice to read how well you have got on with the Haida style blades. Not exactly sharpening a bench chisel!!
What you describe is fairly close to what I do, have some lengths of 3/4" Al. tubing for mandrels.

There are some shapes that I can carve so easily with the crooked knives when compared with, say, gouges from Pfeil.
I had a very heavy canvas apron sewn up as a chest protector. Only hit once for a cut but damaged some nice shirts
so decided that had to stop!

Adzes
As I have no plans to carve big poles, I use a Kestrel Baby Sitka instead of the full size Sitka for the larger of my carvings.
Using it to texture a surface must take many years of practice for the striking accuracy because I stink! But as a rough out tool,
certainly some advantages over my band saw. Pair of story poles 5" x 64" well started for more work this winter.
Together with a D-adze (both Kestrel blades) the poles began as more-or-less 5" x 5" x 64" cedar split posts.
In good wood, I can take no less than 1mm with the D-adze.

Do not believe I'll ever buy a texturing adze as much as I really like the finish appearance. More striking accuracy fails on my part, for certain.
Recently, I've seen some textured table tops. As odd as that sounds, the scalloped surface didn't look strange at all.

The adze blades are another sharpening and honing puzzle as the bevels are inside and the handle woods are just a couple of inches away.

 

[mr dazzler]

Do not believe I'll ever buy a texturing adze as much as I really like the finish appearance. More striking accuracy fails on my part, for certain.
Recently, I've seen some textured table tops. As odd as that sounds, the scalloped surface didn't look strange at all.

I am thinking of getting one to modify wood turned bowls vases and jugs to make sculpted facets with ATTITUDE and add character. I havent owned any kestrel tools yet, will be interesting to see if they are really as good as they make out
I made a huge crook knife (2 feet long with a 4 inch blade), similar to a japanese kiri ganna or whatever the name is. It works very well as a plane to get that nice undulating rippling texture on wood surfaces like table tops. Believe it or not there is some American industrial concern that uses cnc to create "adzed textures" for the construction industry.....

 

[Robson Valley]

Ah, mr dazzler. I now know what you might like to see. I really like the size and shape of a #5 sweep.
I should think that for your turned works, you might like the appearance of tool marks like a D5/8 , 5F/14
and a 5/35 (all Pfeil numbers) if they must be much larger.

Kestrel has been the most significant supplier of PacNW tools to the carving community for 40+ years.
They didn't invent the wheel. Instead, Gregg brought in top names like Bill Holm and Bob Davidson
on the design side.

Buy a Kestrel Baby or regular Sitka blade. Source the wood(s) to haft these things yourself.
Learn the geometry of an elbow adze regarding the Holm Constant and the Kestrel Constant. These are sizing design values
which make the tools a pleasure to swing all day long.

After that, it was a real joy to haft a Kestrel D-adze blade. Kestrel claims that you shouldn't buy/build a D adze until you know
what you plan to do with it. That seems silly, how the Hello else are you going to find out?
The D is a really heavy but fine shaping tool. I'll pick it up first, ahead of any knife.

 

[Leshy]

Cool info here chaps, like those adzes a lot!!!

Especially that elbow one, but I don't get why you said that sharpening these would be a challenge?
Am I missing something?
Is that elbow adze a straight edge or does it curve?
The cutting edge looks a straight line from the picture...
If you have the sharpening stone on the edge of a table you wouldn't even need to take the adze apart , or am I being a little dense here?
Regards

 

[Robson Valley]

The elbow adze blade is a little distorted by the picture. The end of the blade & bevel is actually cupped. I'll guess that the sweep is about a #3.
And, it's a "thumbnail grind" with the middle extending out a little further than either the right or left corners. As you see, the bevel is inside the curve = incannel.
In striking, you can take off postage stamp-sized chips. This isn't a hacking/chunking tool as an axe could be.

All this means is that the sharpening and honing process can't be done on flat surfaces. So much for my waterstones and flat strops!
It has to be freehand, you have to sustain the bevel angle and the stroke length is pretty short, if you don't slash yourself.
By painting the bevel with black felt marker, I've learned that my 12oz ShopFox carver's mallet has just the right taper and radius to serve as a mandrel
for the fine sandpapers and card strops.

I have the full size Stubai carving adze, it is really cupped, the sweep is a 7/75 but the edge is straight (silly, but it is).
Best mandrel to hone that thing is a tennis ball.

The D adze is quite flat but also has a the thumbnail profile. It's a little easier to work on.

In service, it's really important to thing about blade travel in an under strike. Don't stand in the way.
To start a pair of story pole carvings, I've had to make cylinders out of 5" x 5" x 64" cedar posts. Somewhat faster with the adzes than I expected.

 

[Leshy]

Thank you for the explanation RV, it's really interesting.
I see what you mean now...
The thumbnail grind is very useful stops the corners digging in and I use it on my chisels too.
Your improvised mandrel ideas are awesome and very useful , thanks!&#128077;

 

[Robson Valley]

You're welcome. Many has been the night where I've gone to bed, wondering why I can't get the edge I want.
Most times, I've just stopped too soon. They are just pieces of steel. Narex skews are wonderful steel to square off
and regrind for other useful edges.

I have several lengths of aluminum tubing with various grits of sandpapers & strop card wrapped and taped around them.
Those are really useful for the crooked knives. Mom died years ago so I cut up her disused garden chair for the metal.

To be honest, I would like to be able to use my water stones for everything. Keep it simple.
The OP wondered about those, I've got a 1K and a 4K in the shop and a big 4K in the kitchen for cleavers & knives.
Artificial, I wish they had used a harder adhesive to hold the grit together. Oh well. Such a chore to buy another one.
My oil stones are cheap and coarse. Good to begin with for the rough shaping/repair.

The most dangerous wood carving tool I own is that 2-handed, double-edged planing knife with the brown whipping (covers the hand grime on the wood.)
In its first life, that was a Mora #188 Equus farrier's knife. Hall and Ukal have far better steel but that's what I had in that day and time.
Have been cut to the bone before I knew it with that thing.