Sharpening is confusing

[Tye Possum]

Ok so I've been reading about sharpening knives for a long time and well... I'm confused! I have a Victorinox farmer, a Kellam wolverine and I've ordered a Mora clipper I guess as a practise knife before I ruin my more expensive Kellam knife. I have never sharpened a knife in my life because I've pretty much been using swiss army knives and though I can now tell how dull my first one is (I have 3 SAKs) I really didn't use it enough to worry about it. Now I've been getting into bushcraft more so I really need to know how to sharpen them but although I've been reading so much about it, I'm still not sure what to do.
I've ordered a DC4 stone because I figure I can use it like a bench stone but I can also bring it with me when I go camping and stuff, so I'll be using it to sharpen my knives. I know some people prefer a completely flat scandi grind and others like to have a secondary bevel or micro bevel or whatever but I have a knife with a scandi grind and I just noticed, it has a micro bevel (I think that's what it is) so let's focus on that.

So first, how do I use a DC4 stone to sharpen my wolverine knife? I have a leather belt as well that I guess I could use as a strop if I need to. Since it already has a micro bevel I might as well keep it that way so what do I need to do to sharpen it if I can't feel that bevel? From what I hear the mora clipper has the same grind (scandi with micro bevel) as my wolverine so I guess I could sharpen it the same way, or am I wrong about it's grind?

Second, my swiss army knives. With the DC4, how do I sharpen them? I don't know angles so saying "hold the knife at 20º and push it along the stone" isn't going to help me much. So is there some way of finding out how to hold the knife at whatever degree they have?

Also, do I push the knife edge first into the stone (DC4 remember, not a waterstone) and only edge first or do I pull back only or do I push then pull and repeat?

These questions have been on my mind for a while and I figured I might as well see if someone can clear these things up so hopefully I'm just missing something and these questions will be easily answered by someone more experienced with sharpening. :notworthy

 

[Ogri the trog]

Tye - nothing wrong with admitting confusion, we were all in the same boat at some point.
The DC4 is a good stone for field sharpening, but to learn the technique, I recon you'll need something else. Try to get hold of a fine grit bench stone - fine so you wont do too much damage if you do get it wrong, but big enough to get used to doing long steady strokes. Sharpen by pushing the edge forward without pushing down too hard, let the stone do the work or you risk damaging both the blade and the stone.
An alternative, and very effective method is to use one of the propriety brands of sharpener that position ceramic rods in a "V" shape. The blade is held vertically, which is much easier to judge over a given "angle".
A good read through British Reds sharpening threads will be a good information boost.
Most of all, take it easy with small steps and let us know when you've got it aced.

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[robin wood]

These are good questions and show you understand the principles well so all you need is help with the practice. The best possible way is to be shown by someone so you get the rhythm having said that there are 100 different correct ways to sharpen a knife you need to find the way that suits you.

Spyderco sharpmakers are specifically designed for sharpening secondary bevels and lots of people swear by them. If you want to do it with your DC4 or other benchstones this is how I go on.

First look at the primary, hold it so that it reflects the light from a bright window or from a spotlight, then tip it towards you until you see the light shining off the small secondary. Do this back wards and forwards a few times and try to get a judge of how much (how many degrees) you are twisting through to go from the primary to the secondary. Typically it is not much maybe 5 degrees.

Now I lie the primary on my stone rock back and forward a little to feel the primary solidly flat on the stone, fingers of the left hand on the flat of the blade may help you feel it. Now comes the judgement bit, raise the back edge of the blade by the same amount you twisted it before, say 5 degrees, and then lock your elbows against your body to hold that angle constant. Now your secondary should be resting on the stone and a few runs up and down should do the job. Lock everything up so you keep that consistent bevel.

Bear in mind that you are removing metal from a very narrow bevel so it comes off much more quickly that sharpening a wide primary bevel. Typically 10 strokes for a knife that's not too bad, 20 for one that was a mess. Do the other side the same, then both sides on the fine bit of the DC4 and it should cut. Strop if you wish.

Exactly the same system will work on the SAK but the difference between primary flat grind and secondary will be more than 5 degrees.

 

[Chainsaw]

One tip I've seen is to use a black marker pen on the bevelled cutting edge, do a pass over the stone and see what black ink you remove. Adjust the angle and pass again. Then when you think you have figured the angle, marker pen it again and check.

Cheers,

Alan

 

[woof]

Get a spyderco sharpemaker, you won't regret it. Also get some crappy old knives, and sharpen your good ones on the sharpemaker, while practising with the others on the stone.

 

[Cobweb]

I started be practising on my kitchen knives before moving to my bushcrafting knife.

It takes practise and time to build up your 'muscle memory' enough to do it freehand (holding the stone with you hand and the knife with your other hand).

Just take it slow and keep checking your angle, don't expect results overnight, it'll take about a week to get it down.


Another option is to go along to a meet and I can guarantee that there will be someone there who sharpens knives for fun and who will be happy to teach you

 

[lee22]

check out the man himself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQN4jcXDjbE
be sure to watch parts 2 and 3
lee

 

[Draven]

I've always had some issues sharpening penknives, since most of them are flat ground with a secondary. Generally speaking, I find it easiest (and preferable - many of them seem to have very wide-angled bevels) to completely ignore where the factory ground secondary bevel is and just make my own according to my own preferences. After I've got it set in the way I like, I strop on sandpaper over mousemat and then leather, and it's pretty much just leather from that point on.

I agree that you really want something bigger for learning to sharpen, I still can't get along with a small sharpener except for a very rough edge, or on a very small blade... Good thing about a leather strop I guess, they can roll up!

Pete

 

[British Red]

I have a couple of blade guides. These clip to the spine of your knife and guarantee a perfect angle secondary bevel.

The small is perfect for a SAK, the larger more for Mora and above. You can use with any stone or abrasive.

A £10 donation to the Magikelly charity gets both guides including postage

Red

 

[Tye Possum]

Thanks! Sounds like some good info. I guess I might as well get a waterstone although I'll have to wait a bit so I can afford one (shouldn't be too long). I live in Canada so I might as well buy them from Canada, I'm thinking Lee Valley Tools. So which stone(s) would be best out of these: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=43071&cat=1,43072 Thanks.

 

[smoggy]

If you are concerned about ruining your knife trying to sharpen it, probably becuase you need to try the process to understand what you are doing and what effect it has....then maybe what you need to do is prctice on a sacrificial subject.....find yourself a blade that's virtually worthless, maybe out of the back of the kitchen draw or from the bowels of the toolshed and try your sharpening skills on that maybe trying out a variation of sharpening stones and materials as you go...I'm sure you'll soon pick things up and gain the confidence and understanding to tackle a "propper" job.

Hope that's helpfull.

Smoggy.

 

[Tye Possum]

Ok I figure no one saw my last post so I thought I might as well ask again. So, out of these waterstones which one would be a good one for a beginner: [URL]http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=43071&cat=1,43072[/URL]. I guess it should be a fine one as one (or maybe more) of you mentioned. Also, after I learn to sharpen a knife, will I ever use the fine waterstone again if I have my DC4?

Edit: Oops sorry. I didn't notice I had a personal message that answered my question. Thanks Stuart.

 

[Chinkapin]

I have a Lansky Sharpening System (not sure if its available in the UK). It comes with three rather small stones of different grit set in plastic. a metal pin is attached to the plastic part and the other end runs through a metal guide that has, I think, three different angle degree choices. You hold the knife in a clamp that comes as part of the set. Then when you move the stones over the knife (the opposite of the norm.) the exact correct angle is maintained. Sounds a lot harder than it is. Had it for years and it works great. All stores in a small plastic box.