Science and Superstition

[Jaan]

I had an argument with a close relative about the way I was sleeping at home - she thought my bed was probably on some energy channels or aligned improperly and therefore I couldn't sleep. I can sleep and I never said I couldn't but she kept going on and on about how it is scientifically proven.

So I had a thought: One of the reasons why I like bushcrafting is that it is very black and white, scientific and real. I like going to the woods because there are no opinions and theories there. Either something is or it isn't. Either I can eat a plant or not, either the wood is soft or it is hard. Either the tinder will catch fire or not. I can attribute most failures to my lack of knowledge.

Of course it is easy when you're alone in the woods to make up theories as to why something happens or it doesen't, but those are byproducts of the mind and our need to make sense of everything. At least you can test most of it.

That's why I like going out. I am not a religious or superstitious person and I find bushcrafting and being out in the woods to suit me exactly because of that.

Outdoors there are no horoscopes, no churches, no "The Secret". That's why I love it.

Anyone else like that? Is it one of the reasons why you go out?

Or are there any superstitious persons here? If so I'd like to hear if it has any connection with your bushcrafting and why you enjoy it.

 

[spiritwalker]

hmm depends how you look at it most bushcraft skills and living in the forest went hand in hand with pagans (alot of the folklore of the forest became science) also most of the original sacred grounds (now referred to as churches) where natural places trees stone structures etc.

and i am fairly convinced those blasted pixies tie granny knots in your quick release guy ropes whilst your sleeping

To me the forest is a sacred place and i feel enlightened and comfortable there (i am not religious either im still searching so to speak) i try to convince myself its just a sense of belonging but perhaps certain places to certain people offer some sort of solace?

i am a black and white person at heart (trained as a biologist) but there are times when you see things that make you think e.g a deer in a sunlit glade or one of my magical experiences of waking up under an oak in the sun and hanging from almost every leaf was a green caterpillar dangling on a silk thread lit up like lanterns (science wise it was just that but to me if felt very magical)

anyways the bottom line is the fact your enjoying the escape from things you dont agree with is giving you the escape you need call it what you like but it seems to soothe the soul

 

[Jaan]

The things you describe with the deer and oak is magic. But it is the magic of reality. It is magical because it is real. I find nothing supernatural about that. But for me it increases the enjoyment even more. I love experiences like that.

 

[demographic]

I'm generally happy enough with learning about the things that do exist in the universe without feeling the need to imagine others.

If it exists, its measurable in some way.

 

[Mesquite]

I'm generally happy enough with learning about the things that do exist in the universe without feeling the need to imagine others.

If it exists, its measurable in some way.

That pretty much sums it up for me

 

[John Fenna]

There is no magic, no supernatural.
There is only science that has been explained by scientists and science that they have not yet explained ... seen a Higs Bosson yet fellas?

 

[ged]

I'm generally happy enough with learning about the things that do exist in the universe without feeling the need to imagine others.

Knowledge is power. People have wanted power over others since as long as there have been people. If they haven't the knowledge to have the power, some people will make stuff up so as to have power.

If it exists, its measurable in some way.

I'd like to agree with that, but although the Higgs Boson is beginning to look nailed, we're still having trouble with dark matter.

Still, that's never been a big deal for me, it's just a theory that either needs to be proved or disproved so we can move on. The main thing that really bothers me is this:

Suppose that, at some point, the Universe was created. I can't handle that, no matter how big a Bang the maths calls for.

So the alternative is that it wasn't, in which case it has always existed. I can't handle that either.

So I go to the woods, and sometimes I mull it over. It gives me plenty to keep me occupied.

 

[treadlightly]

The things you describe with the deer and oak is magic. But it is the magic of reality. It is magical because it is real. I find nothing supernatural about that. But for me it increases the enjoyment even more. I love experiences like that.

What is reality? Can it be distinguished from perception?

 

[Jaan]

What is reality? Can it be distinguished from perception?

The human brain is a complex organ and I do believe scientists still have a multitude of mysteries concerning how we perceive the world and what we experience.

What differentiates reality from perception is that what is real is actually happening - it can be measured, tested and repeated. Perceptions can be subjective.

 

[Prawnster]

I agree with Mr.Fenna. There is known fact and there are facts that have yet to be proven.

I'm not a superstitious person but I don't believe that this existence is the result of blind chance. That seems far more miraculous than anything that the more bigoted atheists scoff at.

When I'm out enjoying nature I see intelligence, character and an appreciation of beauty. Humans have those traits, amongst others, and that's why we feel a connection to the natural world. But I understand where the OP is coming from, life is a lot more clear cut and black and white when you leave the modern world behind.


Sent from my iToaster using Tapatalk

 

[RonW]

I agree.
Life is simpler, clearer and a lot less gray out there, but I also firmly believe we're "not alone" out there either.
There are things out there we do not fully comprehend; energies, entities, spirits, what ever you want to call them. You, or at least I, can feel them all around you. The older and least touched the forrests and land are, the stronger these feelings get.
Call me a nut (am used to that ), but that's the way I feel....

 

[John Fenna]

I agree.
Life is simpler, clearer and a lot less gray out there, but I also firmly believe we're "not alone" out there either.
There are things out there we do not fully comprehend; energies, entities, spirits, what ever you want to call them. You, or at least I, can feel them all around you. The older and least touched the forrests and land are, the stronger these feelings get.
Call me a nut (am used to that ), but that's the way I feel....

OK you are a nut!
But then so am I - coz I am with you all the way.
Science may not have explained it all yet (and any true scientist will agree that they have yet to weigh , measure or describe everything yet) and what is left is ... whatever you want to call it as scientists have yet to give it some poncy name.
A couple of years scientists were saying "faster than light is impossible" now they are saying "well - lets see about that" - nothing seems to change faster than scientific opinion! - not even light it seems!
I find life simpler in the woods - as I let myself escape the pressures of modern life and the constant blether of "opinion" etc
Fire, water, food, seem to be the only needs out there and there is the ability/oportunity to be absorbed into a timeless pattern of natures rythems....
Now that is "magic"!

 

[wattsy]

faster than light is definitely possible the universe is 13.7 billion years old (ish) and is over 90 billion light years across so its been expanding faster than the speed of light.

 

[woodspirits]

very much with ronw and jf, it really isnt that black and white. might be worth listening to your relative re energy/ley lines, open your mind a little.

 

[Jaan]

very much with ronw and jf, it really isnt that black and white. might be worth listening to your relative re energy/ley lines, open your mind a little.

My mind is very open, but what can be proved without evidence can be disproved without evidence. I am more than certain that if you conduct a double-blind trial with people who say that sleeping on a ley line or improper bed alignment can lead to bad sleep their results of "finding" those lines and/or alignments will be no better than someone doing guesswork.

There are a lot of things I can't explain and there are a lot of things science can't explain but therein lies the pleasure. People coming up with supernatural explanations to things which can't be proved, disproved or tested take all the fun away from finding things out.

 

[ged]

faster than light is definitely possible the universe is 13.7 billion years old (ish) and is over 90 billion light years across so its been expanding faster than the speed of light.

This isn't how it works. You're making the assumption that the universe was, 13.7 billion years ago, in some sense "all in one place". It wasn't. You see, if it didn't exist, and then suddenly it did, then before it was born there wasn't any such thing as a "place" for it to be born in. The brain needs to be recalibrated. Worldly experience cannot prepare us for the concepts needed to deal with things like quantum physics and cosmology. The Universe was born everywhere, all at once, and bits of it didn't have to travel any distance at all to get to be the size it is. In my view the Universe is infinite, and the fact that we now can see bits of it that were glowing 13.7 billion years ago is simply because the light from the bits "further away" than that hasn't reached us yet. But it's on its way. In one year's time, we'll be able to see one light-year further into the cosmos than we can now.

Think of it another way:

When man first looked at the stars, the moon and the planets, he thought that Earth was at the centre of all Creation. But it just looked that way because of the way things are arranged in 'space'. Now we've looked harder, and so we know better. Einstein et al even redefined 'space' and 'point' for us, and started us talking about the 'event horizon'. So now we have better telescopes, and if we look in ANY direction from the Earth we can see things up to 13.7 billion light years away. So that means we must be slap bang in the centre of the Universe, right? What are the chances of that having happened, compared with the chances of this conclusion being balderdash?

 

[woodspirits]

sorry mate, from where i am your mind is very much closed to anything that cant be scientifically proven. the finding of ley lines is no guesswork, the site of every old church lies upon the intersection of at least 2 major lines, very often the alter is directly on top of them. not my findings but the work of people with a vast experience of tracing them, often from scientific backgrounds. try looking at the british society of dowsers website. i dont think ronw, john fenna or i were talking about 'supernatural' just something beyond the parameters that science have set for us, those who choose to step outside of these will find a far wider horizon. but thats just my personal understanding and opinion i dont intend to convert or cajole you or anyone else, im happy being where i am

 

[Mesquite]

I find life simpler in the woods - as I let myself escape the pressures of modern life and the constant blether of "opinion" etc
Fire, water, food, seem to be the only needs out there and there is the ability/oportunity to be absorbed into a timeless pattern of natures rythems....
Now that is "magic"!

And good toilet paper... you can't forget that essential item

 

[RonW]

OK you are a nut!

See, even my notnormalness is natural!!

My mind is very open, but what can be proved without evidence can be disproved without evidence. I am more than certain that if you conduct a double-blind trial with people who say that sleeping on a ley line or improper bed alignment can lead to bad sleep their results of "finding" those lines and/or alignments will be no better than someone doing guesswork.

Don't tell me you have never heard of the ancient Chinese science of Feng Shui, because that is what is being reffered too. That is a science based on allignments in the earth magnetic fields and other external factors. The fact that you are not affected by it, does not mean it isn't there....
We can all agree on the ancient Chinese being far more scientific and advanced than we Westerners like, both than and now. Befor dismissing that, I suggest you give it some thought and read about it first.

As for me, there is no supernatural. It all is natural! We either have lost our touch with or knowledge off it or it hasn't been discovered yet!
Older cultures knew many things and acted accordingly and yet modern man/science has the arrogance to dismiss these people as ignorant savages..

 

[woodspirits]

And good toilet paper... you can't forget that essential item

philistine! whats wrong with a bunch of leaves? (as long as its not holly)