sawyer mini problem?

[steingis]

i have not had this filter long and have not used it much at all taking water from the cleanest source i can find i got this water from a flowing but brown coloured river in northumberland

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this is after filtration which doesnt look much cleaner than it was when i took it out

is this a problem with the filter or do i need a charcoal filter to make it cleaner? the filter hasnt been frozen and was filtering at the normal slow pace

this is the first time i have taken water that was coloured from what i can remember

 

[cbr6fs]

I personally wouldn't worry

The Sawyer and all water filters work by not letting anything above a certain size through the filter, it doesn't care what the particulates are just that are bigger than the pores so don't make it through.

Some things that colour water are small enough to make it through the water pores, this is what you are seeing

 

[steingis]

thanks for the reply a few questions for anyone to answer
do you think that putting it through a charcoal filter would clean it?
would the result be the same with a katadyn hiker/msr miniworks?
would you be happy to drink that ^^?

 

[janso]

I'd be happy to drink it if I knew I had purified it. Charcoal will get rid of the discolour; easy test, use food colouring in water and see what gets filtered


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[cbr6fs]

It depends.

Activated charcoal tends to have very open pores, kind of like a gold ball

This gives it an extremely large surface area for particulates to get trapped within.
It works with some things and not others, they're usually pretty good at removing sediment though so it might be worth a go.
Word of caution though, they do need replacing on a fairly regular basis as the pores will clog and there is currently no easy method of cleaning them (i.e. backflush on the Sawyer)
I use activated charcoal on some of my aquariums and usually replace the charcoal every 2 to 3 months.

Also worth mentioning that although activated charcoal filters are pretty good at removing sediment it's still a filter and a filter with larger pore sizes than your Sawyer.
Some things are attracted to the activated charcoal others not, for example it will not filter out Giardia or Cryptosporidium as the sawyer does, it also won't filter out some heavy metals and many chemicals like insecticides (neither does the Sawyer)


It's a tough one because if we filter too much out of the water we drink we lose the essential salts and minerals, if we don't filter out enough we might get ill.

For me personally i would not drink water from a lowland river unless it was absolutely the last resort.
Very basically the Sawyer will filter out Cysts and bacteria, but the mini doesn't filter out viruses.
I wouldn't be too worried about viruses in the UK, but in low water sources i would be worried about chemical pollution from run-off, insecticides leeching into the river.

It basically comes down to a judgement call.


Some good reading here to help you decide.
http://www.bestglide.com/water_filtering_purification.html

 

[Teepee]

None of my inlines have removed peat stain from water ever. My sawyer is no different.

Coloured water often comes out of scottish taps after treatment too and Scotch Whiskey wouldn't exist if it wasn't for peaty water. It's a non issue.

Agree completely with CBR, I wouldn't touch lowland rivers unless desperate.

 

[steingis]

is there a way to test if the filter is working? would it filter out food colouring like mentioned?

it has been like that twice now once in northumberland and again was dirty/cloudy from a river near scarborough not sure if both those places have peat or not

 

[cbr6fs]

is there a way to test if the filter is working? would it filter out food colouring like mentioned?

it has been like that twice now once in northumberland and again was dirty/cloudy from a river near scarborough not sure if both those places have peat or not

Nope
A food colouring test is absolutely pointless.

Only way you can prove it works is if you can find something that you know 100% is larger than 0.1 microns.

As Teepee said colouring in the water isn't really a bad thing.

We don't really get much in the way of peat here in Greece, but i've taken water in the Lake district, the Peak district, Scotland and Ireland that was a weak tea colour.

In fact the last time we were over we had a night in the New Dungeon Ghyll Hotel to dry our kit out.
I took the opportunity to wash some clothes, i must have been washing my socks for at least 15mins and yet the water was still dirty, in the end i gave up.
I then brushed my teeth and found the tap water was the same sort of colour as your sample

These filters use hollow strands, they're extremely reliable and because they are jam packed in so tight it's unlikely they would fail to the point of letting through anything they are not supposed to.
Only real exception to this is if the filter was frozen after use, you would notice the throughput increase dramatically i'd bet though.


You have to decide what it is you are worried about, the main worries are:
1/ Bacteria/Cysts - Usually go down to around 1.5 micron, so the Sawyer filters these well within it's specs
2/ Viruses - These go down to around 0.004-0.03 micron so the Sawyer mini will not filter these out, they're not really a concern in the UK though
3/ Chemical contaminants - The Sawyer won't filter these out, but then much beyond ROI/pasteurisation won't either, even then some chemicals will still get through the system.
4/ Toxic metals - Again the Sawyer Mini won't do much for these, a Activated charcoal filter will filter out some

For me personally i am not willing to carry the sort of equipment needed or sacrifice enough of my outdoors time to try and remove #3 & #4, so my main defence against these is avoidance.
I'll just not take water from low land sources, especially in or around built up areas, the times i've NEEDED water from these sort of areas i've just asked without any problems.

I do worry about #1 as i have been really ill from what i suspect was infected water

I don't worry about #2 if i stick to my rules about avoiding #3 and #4

 

[janso]

So food colouring won't be filtered out via a charcoal element? My katadyn does it or is it because it's activated charcoal?


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[Will_]

Found this cool video of the Sawyer filtering blue water dye.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZLWlfiwBbg

Am I right in understanding from previous posts that the Sawyer Mini Filter will filter out food colouring, but it's a pointless test because food colouring is a larger particle than bacteria etc.?

 

[janso]

Maybe it is; I've never had the inclination to delve into it! Might be a worthy look into the size of a food colorant particle compared to a bacterial or viral particle. Intriguing...


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[PDA1]

Looks like dissolved iron. Not really a problem. Here's a web site showing a simple water purification and clarification system for use in third world sites

http://www.csdw.org/csdw/index.shtml

Well worth reading to get a better overall understanding of water purification.

More info about what is in it:

http://www.cdc.gov/safewater/flocculant-filtration.html

 

[cbr6fs]

So food colouring won't be filtered out via a charcoal element? My katadyn does it or is it because it's activated charcoal?

Yea sorry my previous post wasn't to clear, that'll teach me to feed the kids, answer works emails and post on the forum at the same time

The point i was trying to make was that unless you want a filter that filters out food colouring there is no point testing one with it.

For a start we don't know the size of the food colouring particles, if they are 0.01 microns then neither the Mini or a AC (activated carbon) filter will remove them.
We don't know how soluble they are, the filter may filter out the particles after say 5 mins, but if the coloured water is left longer do the colouring particles shrink?

If we knew for example that every particle was 0.5 micron after 30 mins then we could see how much colour leaked through the filter.
It's going to be impossible to get that sort of accuracy though so it's for all intent and purposes pointless.

Without that sort of data (particle sizes) it's just a party trick and serves no purpose.

Found this cool video of the Sawyer filtering blue water dye.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZLWlfiwBbg

Am I right in understanding from previous posts that the Sawyer Mini Filter will filter out food colouring, but it's a pointless test because food colouring is a larger particle than bacteria etc.?

Hi will,

As i said above, unless we know the particle sizes it's pointless.

I know absolutely nothing about food colouring besides the Greek tradition of dyeing eggs red at Easter, the particles could be the perfect size to test filters.
Logically though if it was THAT easy my guess is that filter manufacturers would be using said colouring to test it's filters, both on the assembly line in a QA respect and it's customers.
Sure it might cost them a bob or 2 if their filters are found to leak, but it's cheaper than a law suit.



My view is that when i buy a water filter i'm not just buying the product i'm also buying into the credibility of the company, with Sawyer i trust them.
Which is good really as i have no means to test their product on my own.

I think i paid about £25 for my Mini at that price with having experienced the alternative (stomach bug from not filtering) i'm happy to consider the filter as a consumable, in that respect if i even slightly suspect i have damaged it then i'll not risk it i'll just replace it.

Water filtering is a tough thing for most of us Brits to get our head around as we just turn on a tap and crystal clear, generally safe water comes out the tap.

Out in the field there s no realistic 100% safe option.
I have a RO (reverse osmosis) system on my boat and a hand held pump for the life raft, these systems desalinate the water and make it safe to drink.
Off the top of my head the membrane pores are about 0.0001 micron, all fine and dandy.
BUT the same system also removes many of the salts and minerals that our bodies need.
The hand pump is also a heavy cumbersome system that requires hundreds of pumps to get even the smallest amount of water.
You also get a LOT of waste water run off as well.

So there has to be a balance between our own health and safety and the practicality of cleaning our water.

 

[BillyBlade]

My First Need XL takes out blue food colouring. It's supplied with it as part of the integrity test kit.

I wouldn't drink that water shown above, but thats just me. I don't mess around with my kidneys at all. Thats why I learned about agricultural run off, and the difference between a filter and a purifier, and then bought what I did.

But hey, that's just my thoughts.

 

[cbr6fs]

My First Need XL takes out blue food colouring. It's supplied with it as part of the integrity test kit.

I wouldn't drink that water shown above, but thats just me. I don't mess around with my kidneys at all. Thats why I learned about agricultural run off, and the difference between a filter and a purifier, and then bought what I did.

But hey, that's just my thoughts.

The First Need XL is 0.1 micron so offers no more or less filtering than the Sawyer

The colour of the water wouldn't bother me as much as were i took it from

 

[BillyBlade]

The First Need XL is 0.1 micron so offers no more or less filtering than the Sawyer

The colour of the water wouldn't bother me as much as were i took it from

And yet when I drink from peat sources, the water comes out crystal clear when it goes through the First Need and out the other end. It also takes out food dye. My friends Sawyer doesn't. I've said it before on here, I've taken water that looked like death in a puddle, put it through and it's came out looking crystal clear and tasting fantastic. When one of my old cartridges was getting hard to pump and hence needing a change, I purposely went looking for the worst, foulest, God awful water I could find, and tried it, not bothered if it clogged. What came out looked like Evian.

That would suggest there is a lot more to it than pore size, but then the First Need is the only purifier certified to EPA Standards. It's also three times the price, maybe for a reason? The only two filters I trust, and would let my kids drink from when out in the hills, are the First Need and the Lifesaver bottle. That's it.

I don't wish to sound argumentative, but I think sometimes you get what you pay for.

 

[cbr6fs]

And yet when I drink from peat sources, the water comes out crystal clear when it goes through the First Need and out the other end. It also takes out food dye. My friends Sawyer doesn't. I've said it before on here, I've taken water that looked like death in a puddle, put it through and it's came out looking crystal clear and tasting fantastic. When one of my old cartridges was getting hard to pump and hence needing a change, I purposely went looking for the worst, foulest, God awful water I could find, and tried it, not bothered if it clogged. What came out looked like Evian.

That would suggest there is a lot more to it than pore size, but then the First Need is the only purifier certified to EPA Standards. It's also three times the price, maybe for a reason? The only two filters I trust, and would let my kids drink from when out in the hills, are the First Need and the Lifesaver bottle. That's it.

I don't wish to sound argumentative, but I think sometimes you get what you pay for.

The problem i have with that way of thinking is that how water looks makes absolutely no difference to how safe it is to drink.

You could take water from a crystal clear fast flowing stream, but if it has a dead sheep up over the ridge in the middle of the water you stand a good chance of getting ill (not filtered)

Likewise you could take water from a peaty water source that looks like weak tea and be perfectly safe.


The things we are trying to filter out (Bacteria and Cysts in the UK) live as well if not better in well oxygenated clear water as they do in scuzzy puddles.


The other thing is that dirty or peaty water is not all the same, so saying that all of a certain model and brand of filters filter out peaty colouring is as pointless as the food colouring test.

You CANNOT tell if water is safe from just looking at it, so any tests that show a filter removing particles that we have absolutely no idea what size they are is pointless.


What type of filter, you, i or anyone uses doesn't matter.
There is currently no realistic option that's portable enough to take hiking that makes water 100% safe to drink all the time.
Once we accept this this then we simply have to take responsibility for where we take water from.

Even IF i had my RO pump/filter with me and i had the time and effort spare to filter 1 litre of water, i STILL would prefer not to take my drinking water from a low level source or a rive in or near highly populated areas.

So to recap

• The colour of the water doesn't matter, cleaner looking water is no safer than dirty looking water
• We can filter out bacteria cysts easily with many products on the market, still doesn't make all water safe to drink
• Having safe drinking water isn't as easy as buying a filter and forgetting about it, just as safe driving doesn't end after we put a seatbelt on, we should be careful from where we take our water if we want to reduce risk of illness or poisoning.

 

[BillyBlade]

Where did I say I was judging it based on how it looks?

I judge it based on the EPA certification, although if it looks like something that's been filtered through a tramps underwear, then no, it's not for me. Personally I think the whole 'Sawyer' thing is a bit 'of the fashion' right now, and that's fine, different strokes for different folks.

Me, I'll stick to what I know, and trust. And also what doesn't give me water that looks like the picture above, thanks.

 

[cbr6fs]

Where did I say I was judging it based on how it looks?

I judge it based on the EPA certification, although if it looks like something that's been filtered through a tramps underwear, then no, it's not for me. Personally I think the whole 'Sawyer' thing is a bit 'of the fashion' right now, and that's fine, different strokes for different folks.

Me, I'll stick to what I know, and trust. And also what doesn't give me water that looks like the picture above, thanks.

Not really sure why you are being so argumentative and pushing this product so hard
Are you connected in anyway to the company, or have any financial gain from selling these filters?

Sorry if that comes across as a bit unfriendly, it's just you seem to be criticising the competition with absolutely no evidence and pushing your choice like a second hand car salesman on commission day.


Both are 0.1 micron filters, they do exactly the same job.
If the water came out a Sawyer filter like that then it'd come out exactly the same with any other 0.1 micron filter

You also say

Where did I say I was judging it based on how it looks?

But then say

doesn't give me water that looks like the picture above

Completely contradicting yourself

If you trust a certain brand of filter more than others than as a grown, responsible adult that's 100% your choice, i would honestly fight for you to have that choice.

I do think you come across as a petulant school kid when you say things like

Personally I think the whole 'Sawyer' thing is a bit 'of the fashion' right now

Being a friendly sort of bloke though i'll point out some differences between your product and my choice in the hope it can help you see that one solution is not going to work for everyone.

First Need XL = 624g
Sawyer Mini = 40g

First Need XL = 0.1 micron
Sawyer Mini = 0.1 micron

First Need XL = $129
Sawyer Mini = $25

First Need XL = Cartridge Life, 567 litres
Sawyer Mini = Cartridge Life, 378541 litres

First Need XL = EPA Certificate
Sawyer Mini = No moving parts to fail while out

You pays your money, you makes your choice.

Hopefully that will put a end to the argument as they are both products that do the exact same job, no point slagging off one product or the other as it comes down to selecting the tool you feel is right for the job you want it to do.

 

[rik_uk3]

Getting personal now, shut it up or lock the thread down.