Ive read a little about the sas/para bergen and gs&marine bergens,are they the same bergen,are they any good(ive heard that they are) and anyone know anything about them,is the plce bergen an improvement?
Sas,para,gs and marine bergens
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Hi Clem,
The SAS/Para and the Royal Marine bergens are not the same bergen. They both have external frames and I think they're made from steel- the SAS/Para frames are definitely steel. I thought I did see somes plastic frames once but I can't remember on what.Maybe they were just plastic coated.The SAS frame is the same as the one used for carrying the old PRC 351 radio.
They are similar in design to the US Alice packs, but bigger and heavier.
I think the carrying capacity of them are 100L for the sas/para and 75 L for the RM.
The material is very tough and would take a lot to rip it.They can easily handle parachute drops. People used to like them because they ride high so they could be worn with the old '58 webbing.
I have used these sas/para, and I can tell you that they are very uncomfortable, heavy and have no waist/hip belt. They might have been ok in their day , but now I wouldn't bother with them.
The straps at the top are attatched by "dog clips" and all they do is dig into your shoulders. I don't envy the blokes who had to use them in the Falklands, carrying massive weights. Some blokes used to tape pipe lagging around the straps.
I suppose if you don't intend to carry much weight, you'd be ok if you saw one going cheap, but otherwise they're just not comfy enough or light enough compared to today's bergens.
Cheers, Julian.
The SAS/Para and the Royal Marine bergens are not the same bergen. They both have external frames and I think they're made from steel- the SAS/Para frames are definitely steel. I thought I did see somes plastic frames once but I can't remember on what.Maybe they were just plastic coated.The SAS frame is the same as the one used for carrying the old PRC 351 radio.
They are similar in design to the US Alice packs, but bigger and heavier.
I think the carrying capacity of them are 100L for the sas/para and 75 L for the RM.
The material is very tough and would take a lot to rip it.They can easily handle parachute drops. People used to like them because they ride high so they could be worn with the old '58 webbing.
I have used these sas/para, and I can tell you that they are very uncomfortable, heavy and have no waist/hip belt. They might have been ok in their day , but now I wouldn't bother with them.
The straps at the top are attatched by "dog clips" and all they do is dig into your shoulders. I don't envy the blokes who had to use them in the Falklands, carrying massive weights. Some blokes used to tape pipe lagging around the straps.
I suppose if you don't intend to carry much weight, you'd be ok if you saw one going cheap, but otherwise they're just not comfy enough or light enough compared to today's bergens.
Cheers, Julian.
The PLCE is a huge improvement, although in true Army style, these too, are heavy and bulky. The thing is, is that they have to be made that way otherwise the Army won't be able to afford continuous replacements.
They are basically the same design as the Berghuas Crusader/Vulcan, allowing to un-zip the side pouches to form a day sack. They are 100L I think(including pouches). They are also very tough. I would much rather use one of these than the sas/para, any day!
Better still get a Vulcan. I heard that Berghuas makes the PLCE, but you hear all sorts of things. I could be true, why not?
The PLCE has an internal frame made from aluminium and has decent pouches and lid compartments.
They were a vast improvement for the British Army.
Before them there was the '58 ""large"" pack! I won't go into details!-No comment.
They are basically the same design as the Berghuas Crusader/Vulcan, allowing to un-zip the side pouches to form a day sack. They are 100L I think(including pouches). They are also very tough. I would much rather use one of these than the sas/para, any day!
Better still get a Vulcan. I heard that Berghuas makes the PLCE, but you hear all sorts of things. I could be true, why not?
The PLCE has an internal frame made from aluminium and has decent pouches and lid compartments.
They were a vast improvement for the British Army.
Before them there was the '58 ""large"" pack! I won't go into details!-No comment.
Thanks for answering me questions,i was just curious about them to be honest and not thinking of getting one.Ive a Swedish LK35 and will have an LK70 coming soon from Bumbblebee so iam pretty much sorted for rucksacks 
The SAS/Para ergans caused an awfull lot of "bergan burns" ,Basicaly a huge blister on the top of your back ! 
When i was going through training we would wake up the morning after a Tab and take it in turns to pull the bottom sheets of each others backs !
Would definately not recomend them .
The PLCE is not to bad , but like said above , the vulcan is better .
Pumbaa
When i was going through training we would wake up the morning after a Tab and take it in turns to pull the bottom sheets of each others backs !
Would definately not recomend them .
The PLCE is not to bad , but like said above , the vulcan is better .
Pumbaa
How does the Vulcan differ to the PLCE?pumbaa said:The SAS/Para ergans caused an awfull lot of "bergan burns" ,Basicaly a huge blister on the top of your back !
When i was going through training we would wake up the morning after a Tab and take it in turns to pull the bottom sheets of each others backs !
Would definately not recomend them .
The PLCE is not to bad , but like said above , the vulcan is better .
Pumbaa
The waist belt of the Vulcan is much, much better than the PLCE's.
You can pass a lot of the weight to your hips, which makes for a much more comfy yomp/tab/walk.
You can pass a lot of the weight to your hips, which makes for a much more comfy yomp/tab/walk.
pumbaa said:When i was going through training we would wake up the morning after a Tab and take it in turns to pull the bottom sheets of each others backs !
ooooh suits you................was'nt it...........is'nt it
I have actually owned a so-called Para bergen, the canvas A-frame bergen used before that (since the 1940's), a P-44 packframe (without the correct pack), a PLCE bergen, and US Army mountain rucksack made in 1942, another one made in 1952, which is the M-1952 (the earlier one had no model number), and an ALICE rucksack. The ALICE rucksack comes with two different pack sizes, a large and a medium (but no small). I also have a Swedish e-frame, the one with only a half-sack. The latter may be the most comfortable but packing is problematic, since a lot of stuff won't go inside the packbag.
The PLCE bergen is comfortable, provided you don't mind the straitjacket feeling that all internal frame packs seem to have. But it holds everything I need and has room for more. It isn't the lightest thing either and I wonder why the waterproof material did not carry over from previous models. This isn't relevant for us but I wonder how they expect it to be used with web gear, what with the waistbelt and all. Even so, I found it uncomfortable where it pressed against my lower back. I remedied that with a piece of steel curved just right and inserted in the bottom of the rear pocket. That made it heavier but very tolerable. On mine, to tighten the waist belt you pull to the left, which is decidedly unnatural for me and rather odd.
A lot of packs are a pain in my lower back. The old style A-frames never bothered me that way but they are mostly all more difficult to pack and usually do not allow the attachment of anything on the outside to speak of and that is where I put my rolled up sleeping pad. But other than that, they still work fine for weights up to about 25 pounds or so, which is usually enough for summer time.
Strangely enough, my oldest pack, the US Army 1942 mountain rucksack, is easily the most comfortable up to its weight limit, in spite of having the thinnest shoulder straps. They still show up on the trail surprisingly often.
The PLCE bergen is comfortable, provided you don't mind the straitjacket feeling that all internal frame packs seem to have. But it holds everything I need and has room for more. It isn't the lightest thing either and I wonder why the waterproof material did not carry over from previous models. This isn't relevant for us but I wonder how they expect it to be used with web gear, what with the waistbelt and all. Even so, I found it uncomfortable where it pressed against my lower back. I remedied that with a piece of steel curved just right and inserted in the bottom of the rear pocket. That made it heavier but very tolerable. On mine, to tighten the waist belt you pull to the left, which is decidedly unnatural for me and rather odd.
A lot of packs are a pain in my lower back. The old style A-frames never bothered me that way but they are mostly all more difficult to pack and usually do not allow the attachment of anything on the outside to speak of and that is where I put my rolled up sleeping pad. But other than that, they still work fine for weights up to about 25 pounds or so, which is usually enough for summer time.
Strangely enough, my oldest pack, the US Army 1942 mountain rucksack, is easily the most comfortable up to its weight limit, in spite of having the thinnest shoulder straps. They still show up on the trail surprisingly often.
Thanks for the replys so far gents but ive one more for you.Does the vulcan still take the two detatchable side pouches/so you can make the famous daypack that Gary liked so much?
The answer to that would be yes , although they dont clip onto a yoke like the plce . they have 2 detachable sholder straps that thread on via a buckle with 2 top and 2 bottom buckles on each pocket so you can use them on their own or together .
Pumbaa
pumbaa said:
i see or rather i think i understand you Pumbaa 
.Do you use either the PLCE or the Vulcan? or neither! Damn thats another question! I have used both , but currantley use a Cyclops roc (same back as the PLCE) . My Vulcan meet with a knife and was unusable afterwards (jealous squaddie who now has a wonky nose!) . given the chance of a Vulcan at the right price i would rip yer arm of and use it as some kind of dangly bergan decoration!!
As a side thought , did you know a 24 pack of beer cans can fit in the side pockets of a vulcan!!!
Pumbaa
As a side thought , did you know a 24 pack of beer cans can fit in the side pockets of a vulcan!!!
Pumbaa
Thanks Pumbaa,like i said ive an LK70 coming from Bumblebee pretty soon and by the sounds of things there well liked,the PLCE and Vulcans are massive and i may need something bigger in the future perhaps.No i dident know that a 24 pack of beer would fit in the side pockets of a Vulcanpumbaa said:I have used both , but currantley use a Cyclops roc (same back as the PLCE) . My Vulcan meet with a knife and was unusable afterwards (jealous squaddie who now has a wonky nose!) . given the chance of a Vulcan at the right price i would rip yer arm of and use it as some kind of dangly bergan decoration!!
As a side thought , did you know a 24 pack of beer cans can fit in the side pockets of a vulcan!!!
Pumbaa
They may be huge, but you don't have to fill them! My mate has a Vulcan and the weight totally disappears when the belt is set up right. I use a SNugpak Rocket Pack, which is good and is designed to be worn high above webbing, but if you are not wearing webbing, the weight is definitely felt through the shoulders. Good quality bag though, and the PLCE compatable removable side pockets clip onto the Snugpak yoke to make a day pack. It also has two waterproof covers built into the base in DPM and sand, which is a useful novel idea that I have used many times. My only complaint is that it could do with more padding at the lumbar (base of the back) region of the pack and more padding on the shoulder straps, but other than that it's great, and is much bigger than the quoted capacity! I would say the Vulcan is a better pack though.
I might throw in the fact that the zippers are awfully easy to lose when the side pockets are removed from the PLCE rucksack.
BlueTrain said:
Blue train, you will probably find that the reason for this is your right hand has control of a rifle and if you need to adjust the belt then you can without losing said control.
The problems that have been mentioned about dealing with webbing are simple, there are short back versions of these (which are contested quite heavily for) or you can move your webbing pouches out of the way so you just have basic fighting order.
Generally the waist belt is not used and the bergan sits on top of your webbing and your webbing acts similair to a waist belt (not brilliantly comfortable but it does work) and the shoulder harness is adjusted to reflect that.
BlueTrain said:
I used one for 9 years of my 13 years of service and I never lost a zip from the side pouches.
With side pouches the PLCE was quoted as having 120/125litres as it's size if I recall correctly. I used to have a Berghaus Vulcan (the original one) and the zips on the side pouches for these had finer teeth I don't know about the current ones.
Both are huge packs and they have a tendency to make you think you haven't got everything you need if they don't look full. Don't trust this impression, you can get a way with a lot less.
The LK70 would probably be an ideal size so you have in all probability made a very astute choice.
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