sak sharpening

tommy the cat

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 6, 2007
2,138
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SHROPSHIRE UK
Got delivery of dc4 today and want to sort out my sak. Tried stropping with auto sol but hasnt improved her other than making it nice and shiny!!! :D
I take it that the ceramic side is all that I need as the knife has no nicks or damage?
Same theory sharpening as my mora?
Ta again Dave
If I can get her nice may look at getting rid of the plastic scales ( Ive just lost my usual pocket knife!!!!!DoHHHH :( !
 

Longstrider

Settler
Sep 6, 2005
990
12
59
South Northants
I've never used a DC4 myself so I'm not sure how coarse the grit of the diamond side is. You might find that your best bet is to sharpen with the diamond side, then the ceramic side until the marks and scratches from the diamond are gone, then strop on loaded leather.
SAK blades are so thin to start with that I'd keep to having a small secondary bevel on it. Witha little care you can put a slightly convexed secondary bevel on the thing that will come up shaving sharp with ease and will last well too.
 

sxmolloy

Full Member
Mar 22, 2006
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lancashire, north west england
tommy the cat said:
Got delivery of dc4 today and want to sort out my sak. Tried stropping with auto sol but hasnt improved her other than making it nice and shiny!!! :D
I take it that the ceramic side is all that I need as the knife has no nicks or damage?
Same theory sharpening as my mora?
Ta again Dave
If I can get her nice may look at getting rid of the plastic scales ( Ive just lost my usual pocket knife!!!!!DoHHHH :( !

As long as the blade is not very dull then the ceramic (dark) side of the stone should be fine. I never use the diamond side unless I have chipped the blade. Best of luck....Stu
 

tommy the cat

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 6, 2007
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Well I've got to say I now have a small bald patch on my arm........ :rolleyes:
Got to say the dc4 does the trick, however I can not find an easy way of holding the damn thing without holding it in such a way that looks like I could lose a digit!!!!!
Any suggestions before I move on to the mora and blood loss.
Ta Dave
 

Longstrider

Settler
Sep 6, 2005
990
12
59
South Northants
With a larger blade (like your Mora) I'd recommend not holding the DC4 at all. Lay the DC4 on the table/bench and use it like a small bench-stone, especially if you are working on a Scandi grind. You'll often find this a far easier way to keep the Scandi grind and the "stone" properly aligned (angle-wise).
If you find the DC4 slides as you use it you can often cure the problem with a couple of sheets of moistened, folded, kitchen roll underneath the hone. Long-term I'd recommend getting a bit of the rubber non-slip matting that Tesco's and a load of other places sell for about a quid. ;)

Edit to add ; Well done with the SAK. Good feeling to know that the shaving sharp edge is all yourt own work, isn't it?
 

tommy the cat

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 6, 2007
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Good suggestion on the non slip mat got a spare bit of that in my camper van.
Got to say on closer inspection it is only v. sharp about an inch of the blade I guess still got to 'hone' my technique....... :lmao:
I guess knowledge really is experience! One thing I want to check the angle of the blade to the stone should be the thickness of the blade? I guess this is the thinnest part of the blade ie the blade edge. Ta
D
 

addyb

Native
Jul 2, 2005
1,264
4
39
Vancouver Island, Canada.
I agree with Longstrider, non slip feet or pads work really well with sharpening stones. Myself though, I probably only take my SAK to a stone once every six or eight months. I keep it shaving sharp by stropping it every few days on a leather belt loaded with buffing compound that Jimbo was kind enough to send me. Occasionally I'll alternate the strop with a steel but the effect is the same.

One thing that I would suggest for you though, Tommy is to sharpen the blades on your SAK at slightly different angles. I hone the small blade on my EDC at a fairly high angle so as to give it a sortof scalpal edge. And the main blade I hone at a fairly low angle so it holds up a bit better when I'm cutting or slicing heavier materials such as cardboard at work.

Good luck with your DC4!

Adam
 

tommy the cat

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 6, 2007
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Ta Adam et al I pressume you mean a high angle to be more towards 90o than 0o ( if you know what I mean)
Got to work on my technique as my blade has got a bit marked in the sharpening process.....how do you clean the dc4?
Ta Dave
 

addyb

Native
Jul 2, 2005
1,264
4
39
Vancouver Island, Canada.
I don't actually own a dc4, but I'd assume that you'd clean it in the same manner as any other. I wash my oilstone in hot soapy water, scrub it and rinse it really well. Minute steel particles from a blade will clog the pores in a stone reducing its effectiveness. The same goes for my set of Arkansas stones.

However, I prefer to sharpen my stones dry. I've found them to work far better than with oil or water. Have a look at this link, you might be surprised: http://users.ameritech.net/knives/Juranitch1977Feb.htm

Cheers,

Adam

PS: Yes, a high angle would be more towards 90 degrees. You get a much sharper finished edge but because the angle is so high the blade dulls much quicker than a low angle. Think of a carpenters chisel compared to a surgeon's scalpal. You'd be surprised though, at how long the edge lasts on a well set up SAK.
 

TheGreenMan

Native
Feb 17, 2006
1,000
8
beyond the pale
Hi Tommy,

I’m guessing the problem with only part of the blade being ‘shaving sharp’ is a problem with maintaining the factory ground angle on the small edge bevel with freehand sharpening.

A few weeks ago I dug out a Victorinox with a single blade, that I bought to take with me to India about fifteen years ago (it drilled holes in coconut shells without leaving a mark on the blade). It had been languishing in a tool box since then.

As I convex all pocket knives (because of the problem of maintaining the angle of during freehand sharpening – I only do freehand sharpening), I decided to convex this old Victorinox (can’t find this one on the Web anywhere. It just has a plain aluminium Swiss cross on it, without the shield around it, on red aluminium scales) using the mouse mat method.

Mouse mat (foam side up) with a sheet of P240 grit paper on top, and draw the blade (edge trailing) along the paper until the sharp edge where the primary bevel meets the secondary bevel has been rounded off (I’m not talking about the cutting edge!). Then do the same on the opposite side of the blade.

The convexing only goes up from the cutting edge about 1.5mm (don't know how high the flat grind is/was on yours, the flat grind on mine couldn't have been more than I millimetre or so). I didn’t do a full height convex all the way up to the spine to avoid over-thinning the blade, and thus making the edge a little thin and weak.

Then I swapped to a paper with a P220 grit to remove some of the scratches on the convexed section. And then again to a P400 grit. Then I stropped it on a piece of leather with blue polishing compound. Now I just maintain the edge from time to time with a leather stop with no compound on it, as Adam has described.

Alternatively, if you don’t want to do the whole stropping with compound and leather, thing, you could just polish the edge (after convexing with the papers – note: you only need to use the papers once, unless you have chipped the edge and need to remove a lot of metal) with the ceramic side of the DC4. And you only need to polish less than a millimetre up from the cutting edge with the DC4 (but stopping will give a higher polish, and therefore a sharper edge).

The grits on the papers aren’t ‘the ultimate ones’ to use, they are just what I had kicking around.

And by the way, once you have convexed the edge, if you keep the blade angled so that it is raised by the thickness of the blade (as per the instructions on the DC4 box), it should be the correct angle to polish the edge on the ceramic side, but you may need to experiment with this, as it will depend on exactly to what degree you will have convexed it, and so forth (each blade is unique, each grind is unique, and how you develop your honing skills will be unique...it's more of an art than a science).

I never quite understood why people raved so much about Victorinox knives, but now I do. It’s an awesome little knife, made from superb steel. It’s now my (UK legal) EDC as they say, in knife carrying circles.

Don’t know what Mora you have, but I levelled the bevel with diamond side of a DC4 and then polished the bevel with the ceramic side, on a Frosts Viking Tradesman 680 last week, and the Triflex steel blade is now so sharp, it’s ‘evil’ (I suspect that stopping would make it positively demonic :) ). By the way, if you extend the index finger of the hand holding the knife, onto the blade (just beyond the handle), you’ll find this helps to avoid the blade twisting as you slide the knife over the Whetstone. It’ll help to keep the bevel flat on the whetstone throughout the stroke, as the blade tends to twist slightly as you get toward the tip of the blade on each stroke.

As an alternative to Longstrider’s excellent suggestion of the anti-slip rubber matting, if you need to use the DC4 hand-held, and you can’t hold it without your thumb and index finger being above the surface of the Whetstone, try resting it on the flat of the palm of your hand (like feeding a carrot to a horse). This way, you can’t slice into any digits.

Come to think of it, a small piece of rubber matting between the palm of the hand and the DC4, might be the perfect non-slip/no-injury solution when away from a convenient flat surface!

Hope this helps, and happy honing.

Best regards,
Paul.
 

addyb

Native
Jul 2, 2005
1,264
4
39
Vancouver Island, Canada.
As I convex all pocket knives (because of the problem of maintaining the angle of during freehand sharpening – I only do freehand sharpening)

Paul,

It's funny that you mention that. I used to have a difficult time freehand sharpening and ruined several good knives in the process of learning. Mind you, I'd like to think that I'm skilled enough at it now that I can take nearly any knife out there and get it shaving sharp fairly easily. But I still make mistakes from time to time!

Anyway, here's a strange story for you: I have several SAK's and there was a time (when I was learning freehand) that I used to convex my previous EDC. But I ran into a problem: I sharpened the main blade too much and eventually convexed it to a point where there was no metal left on the edge and it folded like a piece of paper. So now I have this little knife tucked away in my closet where it's basically useless. With my current SAK, I've kept the bevels as close as I can to the factory made ones. But hey, mistakes make for learning.

Cheers,

Adam
 

tommy the cat

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 6, 2007
2,138
1
55
SHROPSHIRE UK
Once again you guys have gone to alot of effort to write great tips. :You_Rock_
I have took everything you guys have said on board my sak is v.sharp and so is the smaller blade which I only stropped with autosol to shaving sharp.
I have never been a massive fan of sak but after losing my fav/but tiny (and now I find illegal!) knife I have dug the old sak out and have got to like her......not sure about the black scales though what do peeps think about mahogany for scales?
I'v e got a few pieces of 100yr shelving in the garage!!!!!
Ta again
 

TheGreenMan

Native
Feb 17, 2006
1,000
8
beyond the pale
addyb said:
Paul,

It's funny that you mention that. I used to have a difficult time freehand sharpening and ruined several good knives in the process of learning. Mind you, I'd like to think that I'm skilled enough at it now that I can take nearly any knife out there and get it shaving sharp fairly easily. But I still make mistakes from time to time!

Anyway, here's a strange story for you: I have several SAK's and there was a time (when I was learning freehand) that I used to convex my previous EDC. But I ran into a problem: I sharpened the main blade too much and eventually convexed it to a point where there was no metal left on the edge and it folded like a piece of paper. So now I have this little knife tucked away in my closet where it's basically useless. With my current SAK, I've kept the bevels as close as I can to the factory made ones. But hey, mistakes make for learning.

Cheers,

Adam

Yep, got to watch out for over thinning a thin blade by convexing (I convexed mine maybe 0.5mm above the shoulder of the original grind) a blade with a relatively thin cross section. Even with the fairly modest convexing I’ve done on the SAK, I would be a little worried about drilling anymore coconut shells.

I wouldn’t use it for anything more than some light whittling, or more likely cutting myself some slices of Chorizo sausage at the bus stop, or having a snack of bread and cheese, a piece of fruit, and opening parcels etc, which is pretty much all I need a knife to do for an EDC for carrying around a city like London (pretty much all I’m allowed to do too, from a legal point of view).

I’ve got to say, that the steel is one of the easiest stain-resistant steels I’ve ever sharpened (that reminds me, I must buy a 12C27 Brusletto blade to tryout soon!)

I like your idea about maintaining high and low angles on a two bladed pocket knife, by the way. A very utilitarian approach. Good stuff.

Oh, and I might buy a couple of the inexpensive SAKs (now that you’ve inspired me to practice at freehand sharpening very small bevels) such as a Pocket Pal
http://www.tooled-up.com/ManProduct...-Pal-Red-Swiss-Army-Knife-2-Functions-0690000

Or a Solo
http://www.tooled-up.com/ManProduct...ed-Swiss-Army-Knife-1-Function-In-Box-0871000

Oh boy, blades…so many to try, so many temptations, so many skills to practice and acquire <sigh>…I love it.

All the best,
Paul.
 

TheGreenMan

Native
Feb 17, 2006
1,000
8
beyond the pale
tommy the cat said:
Once again you guys have gone to alot of effort to write great tips. :You_Rock_
I have took everything you guys have said on board my sak is v.sharp and so is the smaller blade which I only stropped with autosol to shaving sharp.
I have never been a massive fan of sak but after losing my fav/but tiny (and now I find illegal!) knife I have dug the old sak out and have got to like her......not sure about the black scales though what do peeps think about mahogany for scales?
I'v e got a few pieces of 100yr shelving in the garage!!!!!
Ta again

Glad to hear the sharpening is going well, Tommy. Don’t know much about mahogany for knife handles, although I believe it’s a wood with a high oil content (might not be so high after a hundred years, though), so if you use it for the scales, it might be an idea to apply Teak Oil for the finish, as I understand this is best suited for finishing wood with a high oil content.

Personally, I’d fancy some Ebony or Lignum Vitae, really dense, hard wood, but I’m just interested in those woods at the moment, and if you polished either of those woods with steel wool, from what I’ve read so far, you probably wouldn’t have to apply any finishing oil at all, at least on a pocket knife.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebony
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lignum_vitae

Anyway, food for thought.

Best regards,
Paul.
 

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