Excellent points. Well made and noted. Thanks!Not sure what you mean by "bevel edge" ricasso. I just had a look at the RM/Emberleaf knife and the edges of the ricasso are not bevelled....unless you are referring to the plunge line?
I am not sure that it is right to say that Ray likes them, hence they appear in all the related knives. There has been wide variation in the length of ricassos on RM knives, even from the same makers. Some Alan Wood versions have really short ones, and some have really long ones. The Emberleaf version is in the middle, longer than I would have, but not excessively long (like early A.Wright bushcraft knives). Back in 2003 when I was on a RM course, the instructors were very much against any sizeable ricasso on a bushcraft knife. It came up because I took a knife I had made modelled after a Ed Fowler design, which had a 3/4 inch ricasso and big brass guard.
I don't see any good reason to have much ricasso on a bushcraft knife. That Ed Fowler was great for some tasks, no way your hand would slip while skinning with that big guard, but it sucked for wood work.
What also makes a difference is the length of the plunge. If the blade has been ground with a platten with a soft radius, the total non-cutting blade length can get quite long. The same ricasso on a blade ground with a sharp plunge could be a very different beast to work with. There is also the matter of how the leading edge of the handle is angled. If the front of the handle angles out down the blade the hand can ride further forward, and a bit of ricasso doesn't matter. It is worth mentioning, if you run wood too close to the front of the handle, you can wind up with some impressive splinters driven into the web of hand between thumb and first finger.
As an example of both a sharp plunge, and a slightly angled handle, the Spyderco Bushcraft.
Ricasso...
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If you freehand sharpen, and you're not at right angles between the stone and the blade edge, that clearance seems pretty useful to me. I have to try really hard to stop the heel of my kitchen knife blades bulging as the rest of the blade becomes worn.
To me its more of a feature on full tang knives as a transition from blade to handle.
Less common on puukko blades probably because of the ways of traditional manufacturer and the fact they never used excess steel unnecessary.( caused me to scrape brass bolsters on stones a few times and I'm sure I'm not the only one lol)
I used to hate choils but over time found them useful.
One knife I do not like the riccasso on is my jungles,just need to build up the courage to make a choil in this area,would improve its versatility for me personally.
Oddly enough riccasso is the common place for the makers paw print
Less common on puukko blades probably because of the ways of traditional manufacturer and the fact they never used excess steel unnecessary.( caused me to scrape brass bolsters on stones a few times and I'm sure I'm not the only one lol)
I used to hate choils but over time found them useful.
One knife I do not like the riccasso on is my jungles,just need to build up the courage to make a choil in this area,would improve its versatility for me personally.
Oddly enough riccasso is the common place for the makers paw print
There are experienced outdoors people on both sides of the guard/ricasso debate and they usually have very good and well considered reasons for their preferences. In general though, the people who advocate for guards and larger ricassos tend to have hunting and skinning game as a significant part of their outdoor experience.
Probably the most extreme example:
www.edfowler.com
Bill Burke, who makes in the Fowler style: post 14
www.bladeforums.com
"How many that are replying to this thread have been shoulder deep in the chest cavity of a very large animal with both handes and arm inside one of them holding a razor sharp knife while the other is holding back from two or three hundred pounds of offal while the first hand is trying to cut the diapham and in order to remove the contents of the body cavity? How many have done it enough to get good at it? Having the ability to place the middle finger on the riccasso with the index finger reaching to the tip of the blade the thumb pinching the blade to the middle finger while the ring and pinky fingers remain behind the guard let me have total control and know exactly where the blade is in relation to my other hand. In twenty years of using this type of hold on a knife i have not hand a slip or cut myself. ...."
When I visited Dan Farr, a very experienced maker and outdoorsman (hunting and fishing), he explained that neither he, nor anyone he knew, ever did any cutting with the 3/4" of blade nearest the handle (not including ricasso). His knives had pretty large ricassos, they also had a somewhat recurved shape, this because his knives were for hunting and they wanted as much belly as possible. Yes, works of art, but also rigorously made to perform as tools, just not aimed at what most here want a knife for.
www.bladeforums.com
As a place for a makers mark, it is really good...the user can polish and re-bevel the blade all they like and not erase the mark.
Probably the most extreme example:
The Design
Bill Burke, who makes in the Fowler style: post 14
On Ricasso design..
Here are a few photos, borrowed from a Stuart Branson recent thread. It seems to well illustrate the intent of the "Fowler-style" ricasso. Comments? Re: My latest hunter « Reply #9 on: October 11, 2010, 09:20:59 PM » "That is a great knife! The long ricasso lets you have a 4"...
www.bladeforums.com
When I visited Dan Farr, a very experienced maker and outdoorsman (hunting and fishing), he explained that neither he, nor anyone he knew, ever did any cutting with the 3/4" of blade nearest the handle (not including ricasso). His knives had pretty large ricassos, they also had a somewhat recurved shape, this because his knives were for hunting and they wanted as much belly as possible. Yes, works of art, but also rigorously made to perform as tools, just not aimed at what most here want a knife for.
A new piece from Dan Farr
Greetings all. I picked this one up from Dan at Blade, but figured I'd wait on Coop's quality pic to share it here. I don't have the knife at hand, so I can't give dimensions yet, but it's a CruForge V blade, stainless guard and Goncalo Alves handle. I think this is a pretty solid...
www.bladeforums.com
As a place for a makers mark, it is really good...the user can polish and re-bevel the blade all they like and not erase the mark.
I think that is one of the problems; we tend to talk about a knife as though it is a generalist tool (and some are I suppose) but a lot are designed and have evolved over a long period to perform specific tasks and in specific environments. A Woodlore style knife would be next to useless in the environment I am using my knife in most days now but my work knife would be pretty poor for any detailed whittling and the like or, indeed, for skinning game.
When I was preparing meat in the field (or even large fish to be honest) more regularly I often had my hand on the blade, with my index finger sitting below the point cutting edge up, feeling where the guts were relative to the blade and I did prefer to have my thumb and little finger behind the guard to prevent any slips but I thought that was just my 'amateur' way of doing the job
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When I was preparing meat in the field (or even large fish to be honest) more regularly I often had my hand on the blade, with my index finger sitting below the point cutting edge up, feeling where the guts were relative to the blade and I did prefer to have my thumb and little finger behind the guard to prevent any slips but I thought that was just my 'amateur' way of doing the job
.
For regular bushy stuff I like a slim Ricasso and minimal Choil, and would actively steer away from something that had a deep choil or large ricasso or quillon/guard.
Yes, I have dressed large elks and seen even more done. No guarded knives around. And no problems. So it can be done safely but all those involved had used unguarded (!) knives all their lives. Different traditions, that's all.
I could only get the picture to open using my phone, not my computer. The smaller knife quite clearly has a ricasso. It is small, but it is there. The larger knife doesn't look like it does, but the photo could be clearer as there is a shadow right at the crucial place.
The Marttiini has a 1.5 mm "ricasso" which I consider to be a result of production process. Easier to make the bolster. I have been thinking of grinding it away. The Roselli has none.
Actually that small blemish makes sharpening more difficult not easier, it is always in the way. If I have some scratches on the bolster who cares. These knives are for using.
Actually that small blemish makes sharpening more difficult not easier, it is always in the way. If I have some scratches on the bolster who cares. These knives are for using.
Thinking about it further two of my favourite tools have a very minimal ricasso which for me is fine. Minimal enough that i dont really register them as they dont get in the way. But enough to suit how I use and maintain a knife.
I think i pictured the OP referring to something more like this which, just for the way i use my tools at least, serves no purpose and I cant thinknof one. But.... To open the discussion up a bit more i would be very interested to find out if this sort of thing does have uses that Ive not been exposed too?
With this being a "gameskeeper" model is it something specific to certain game processing techniques in this instance?
I think i pictured the OP referring to something more like this which, just for the way i use my tools at least, serves no purpose and I cant thinknof one. But.... To open the discussion up a bit more i would be very interested to find out if this sort of thing does have uses that Ive not been exposed too?
With this being a "gameskeeper" model is it something specific to certain game processing techniques in this instance?
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There are experienced outdoors people on both sides of the guard/ricasso debate and they usually have very good and well considered reasons for their preferences. In general though, the people who advocate for guards and larger ricassos tend to have hunting and skinning game as a significant part of their outdoor experience.
Probably the most extreme example:
The Design
Bill Burke, who makes in the Fowler style: post 14
"How many that are replying to this thread have been shoulder deep in the chest cavity of a very large animal with both handes and arm inside one of them holding a razor sharp knife while the other is holding back from two or three hundred pounds of offal while the first hand is trying to cut the diapham and in order to remove the contents of the body cavity? How many have done it enough to get good at it? Having the ability to place the middle finger on the riccasso with the index finger reaching to the tip of the blade the thumb pinching the blade to the middle finger while the ring and pinky fingers remain behind the guard let me have total control and know exactly where the blade is in relation to my other hand. In twenty years of using this type of hold on a knife i have not hand a slip or cut myself. ...."On Ricasso design..
Here are a few photos, borrowed from a Stuart Branson recent thread. It seems to well illustrate the intent of the "Fowler-style" ricasso. Comments? Re: My latest hunter « Reply #9 on: October 11, 2010, 09:20:59 PM » "That is a great knife! The long ricasso lets you have a 4"...
When I visited Dan Farr, a very experienced maker and outdoorsman (hunting and fishing), he explained that neither he, nor anyone he knew, ever did any cutting with the 3/4" of blade nearest the handle (not including ricasso). His knives had pretty large ricassos, they also had a somewhat recurved shape, this because his knives were for hunting and they wanted as much belly as possible. Yes, works of art, but also rigorously made to perform as tools, just not aimed at what most here want a knife for.
A new piece from Dan Farr
Greetings all. I picked this one up from Dan at Blade, but figured I'd wait on Coop's quality pic to share it here. I don't have the knife at hand, so I can't give dimensions yet, but it's a CruForge V blade, stainless guard and Goncalo Alves handle. I think this is a pretty solid...
As a place for a makers mark, it is really good...the user can polish and re-bevel the blade all they like and not erase the mark.
I do the exact hold described in italics here. Ricasso or not I'm not much fussed, even buried deep in a chest cavity you can tell if your thumb is moving around just from the pressure you're keeping on it.
That said I do like an unobtrusive ricasso. Personally I think it makes a knife look more 'finished'
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